Wolves, Lower

The R.E.M. Breakdown

jD and Rico are back, this week their discussing the first track from the Chronic Town EP, Wolves, Lower.

Transcript:

[0:15] Hey, it's J.D. here, and I'm joined, as always, by Rico Borrego to discuss the.

[0:21] Work of influential American band R.E.M.

Every week, we'll explore a different song in the band's catalog, working through the discography in chronological order to better understand just why this four-piece is considered soseminal, innovative, and downright awesome.

So there's that. Talk to me, Rico. How the hell are things going over there?

Oh, we're doing good. We're doing good. How are you doing?

I'm, you know, I really shouldn't complain to anybody other than my psychiatrist. So I'll spare you.

So today we are flipping the page on the hip tone era of REM.

And we are moving to the IRS era where REM will live for the next about six or seven years.

Years and they started that journey with an ep called chronic town and we're going to cover the first track off chronic town today uh wolves lower what are your initial thoughts on chronictown frico chronic town i okay going back once i heard the band and i was kind of basically going from from their most recent album all the way back to the beginning.

[1:42] I thought I was going to have a mixed bag opinion on it.

I thought I was going to be a little bit like, oh, I don't love the production, or maybe I don't think the songwriting's as tight.

But I actually think for a debut EP, I don't know if there's a band that has a better debut EP than them.

Oh, wow. That's a big challenge. If we're not talking about albums, albums but like you know when a band releases something before an album like their first studio album i don't know ifyou're getting any better because i mean this has some of their you know i think some of their best early songs yeah i would i can't argue with that i mean only five songs so i mean butespecially these first three i mean i think they're gold i think they're gold On the Chronic Town side of the album.

The other side of the album is called what? Poster Torn? Yeah, Poster Torn.

Poster Torn. I think they did that for almost every, I think there's one or two, maybe after Warner Brothers, where they stopped doing that.

But yeah, they would always have first side of the LP named something and then the other side named something else, which I loved.

I don't know if any other band really did that.

I've seen a couple bands do it, but not consistently. Not like every release.

But yeah, I'm trying to think off the top of my head right now, and yeah, I can't.

[3:09] You know, maybe it should be pointed out, too, that they were a band that never included the lyrics.

Up until, I think, Green was the first time they included any lyrics to any songs in the liner notes.

[3:24] I have an original vinyl copy of Chronic Town.

And he's holding it up right now. I'm jealous as a son of a bitch.

The original IRS sticker on it and shrink wrap on it.

And yeah, it didn't come with any liner notes, no lyrics.

And I think that was definitely intentional. I think Michael's even got a record saying the first couple albums, half the time he was just mumbling, coming up with lyrics.

Yeah. I haven't written down that the simple lyrics are more of a melodic soundscape.

Yes. you know, is sort of how he handles these, uh, these lyrics.

You can almost see him probably, you know, performing a song live and, and substituting words, you know, in some cases, but keeping that melodic vibe, you know, to, um, you couldn'tchange something as comp as, as, uh, recognizable as like housing or, or you can change that.

But some of his other lyrics, you know, you could probably, uh, fuck around with a little bit.

Yeah, he almost, in the first couple albums, he was almost just like another instrument, almost.

Ooh, that's nice. I like that. Yeah, I mean, he was just playing counter melodies to Mike's bass line or Peter's guitar, you know, chord changes, you know, like, And I mean, that that kind ofstood true throughout the rest of the discography, but especially on these first couple albums.

[4:52] And, you know, this album has a somewhat, you know, this EP, I guess, has a somewhat interesting history.

[5:01] You know, after Radio Free Europe in 1981, their manager at the time, Jefferson Holt.

He was like okay i think this band is ready for a bigger release but they decided not an album yet let's do an ep yeah and because radio free europe had some minor success for them umthey caught the attention of irs right and originally actually the band was going to release the ep on their their manager's self-run independent record label called Dash Hopes.

Oh, so it was never going to be part of HipTone?

Originally, no. Oh, wow. Their manager was like, I started my own record label, and we could put it out on there.

But then IRS was like, oh, yeah, we love Radio Free Europe.

And they made it. And IRS, pretty influential. Just a handful of the bands that they had on their roster, The Go-Go's, The Fall, The Bangles, Concrete Blonde, Black Sabbath, Fine YoungCannibals, Gary Newman, Oingo Boingo, just to name a few.

[6:09] You know, it kind of makes sense you naming those bands because I feel like REM and those other bands have kind of similar things in common, you know? They share some DNA.

Yeah, their sound, they're kind of, all those bands I felt like at the time sounded new and fresh. Right. Right.

And, you know, IRS, the band went into a studio called The Drive-In. That's right, yeah.

[6:39] It's in Salem, North Carolina. Yep. And they recorded these songs.

And actually, the original track list had, instead of the song we're talking about today, Wolves Lower, originally had the songs Ages of You and then an unreleased song called called jazzlips which yeah i just this morning decided to see if i could find it and i found it on youtube you did i it's on youtube i don't know if i'd recommend listening to it because whoeveruploaded it like i i don't know if it was recorded this way or if this is just the only way this person can upload it to youtube but it sounds terrible like the mix oh it just it sounds if youthought radio for europe the hip tone version sounded like a little muddy like this is just just almost unlistenable. Oh, wow.

Um, but, and it also just sonically sounds the most out there compared to these other songs has a lot of like, bleeps and boops on it huh like some keyboard parts and some looping andyeah it's it's weird and actually i think one of the best things irs did was uh two of the guys from irs were like yeah we we think this ep would be better if you took off ages of you and jazzlips and include wolves lower that's right and but we need you to slow it down a little because you need to re-record it.

Just like with Radio Free Europe, they're like, it's a little too fast.

[8:06] Have you heard the original? Yeah, and it is a little faster.

Okay. But, I mean, other than that, like, everything's pretty much the same.

I think there's even less differences with those two than with the two versions of Radio Free Europe.

Well, talk about a Herculean task as well. They went into the studio, like, a mere two months before the EP was released.

They went in in June, and the album was released August, what, August 24th.

A 82 and they went into the studio in june to do this re-record uh that's you know that's a pretty quick turnaround yeah and um it's to mitch mitch easter the producer he was like this waskind of the band's first time in a proper studio and even though he said the studio setup was very simple he was like that's right this was their first time being able to experiment withrecording and in And different, you know, the mechanics when it comes to recording.

Yeah, and we'll get into some specifics once we talk about the actual songs.

Some of the recording techniques that they did, you know, that they did use.

[9:12] And we'll get into that a little bit more after we listen to Wolf Slower.

What else do you have? You know, I think just for the EP itself...

I want to say that's probably it. I mean, it was successful for the band.

I know the EP is a fan favorite.

Yeah. Like, people consider the EP as strong as Murmur or anything else the band did afterwards.

I think it stands out. Yeah. I think it sounds great. I mean, 42 years old, for heaven's sake.

Yeah. And I think it was, you were actually mentioning it earlier.

[9:53] A couple years ago they reissued the album for record store day on a picture disc oh i thought i said i read it was a baby blue disc well maybe there was there might have been twothen because i've seen it's a numbered disc as well like they're numbered up to five thousand there's only five thousand of them because i was on discogs trying to buy one they're a littletoo rich for my blood right now oh you know what okay so yeah in 2010 they did yeah you're right the the blue vinyl but then i think just maybe two years ago for the 40th anniversarythey did the the full the full-size picture disc where it's just the the gargoyle the the album cover okay on the actual and i've seen that at my record store and um i almost bought it and theni went back a couple weeks later and got lucky and found the original i was like okay well i had my pick yeah that's amazing well while you've got the vinyl in your hand what do you youmake of the album cover?

I think it's really cool. I mean, it's...

[10:57] It's interesting because, you know, with Murmur coming up, and we'll talk about that, I'm sure, on the Murmur episodes, like, I feel like it's a piece of the history of the band.

Yeah. Like, they, I feel like a lot of their covers, like, there's actually a lot of covers where there's actually, like, a picture of one of the band members, but it's, like, blurry and you can'treally tell who it is and stuff.

[11:23] But then this one, it's just very, like, it's very simple. like it's this like i have always thought it was like a gargoyle yeah it is it is a gargoyle from and it's got a very interesting likelike it's leaning its like head on its hand yeah it looks it's there's a tragically hip song called yawning or snarling and sort of like that the album the album reminds me of that like is this amenacing gargoyle or is it a bored gargoyle i don't know Oh, I love that comparison.

Yeah, I totally agree.

And then, you know, the back cover here, you got the band.

Yeah, they I feel like this is the only other time this happens, I think, is on their last record where you have a picture of all of them on the cover.

I might be wrong about that. I might be wrong, but I know there's others like Around the Sun.

I think Michael's in that, but it's blurred.

Okay. I know Michael's on Document.

Yep. Someone else is on Life's First Pageant. But no, I love...

And I especially love the color palette of this album.

I mean, it's just... It's like black and...

[12:32] I don't know what, it's like a, a bluish greenish color.

Right. It's kind of the similar color that their in time album cover is the compilation one with the moon.

Okay. So that kind of reminds me of that, which that was the first thing I've ever heard from REM.

So I have special attachments to that. You definitely do.

You definitely do. And then of course the little IRS sticker is cool with the, with their logo, with like the, the business guy. The other thing that you pointed out to me that I think isfascinating about the album cover is the track listing.

Do you want to go into detail about that?

Yeah. So on this track listing, the songs are not in order on the back.

Like they're not in order. Who does that?

[13:16] And they're not. I'm looking at them. They're not in alphabetical order either.

I think actually they're in order. If you look at it, they're in order from how long the song title is.

That's what it looks like to me it's making sort of a pyramid or almost like a devo hat, yeah yeah i can see that yeah and like and i know on their other albums murmur a life's pageantthey're also not in a particular order and i i'm fucked i think it took them i don't even know when it was the first album where they actually were like listed one through whatever you knowright uh and i i think part of that was just like their kind of style like Like, they're going to do things a little different.

Absolutely. I don't know if they thought that was cool or if they were going to start trans.

I probably think they didn't care. They're just like, we're just not going to do something the way that everyone always does it, you know? Yeah.

Yeah, I think so. They're going to start, like, their own traditions.

[14:14] Well, should we give this tune a spin? Oh, yeah. Because I think there's a good amount to talk about with this first opening track.

All right. Well, let's do it. This is Wolves Lower. Check it out.

[18:32] All right. So that was Wolves Lower, the first track off of Chronic Town.

JD, what do you think of Wolves Lower? Wolves comma lower. I guess we should have said that too. The song title is Wolves comma lower.

Well, to me, as an opening track, it's both mysterious but inviting and lo-fi but experimental.

It's got a lot of ingredients here in front of you that don't necessarily go together, but they really just work.

And you've got Buck coming in with those arpeggios that really define the blueprint of REM songwriting almost through their career, but definitely through the IRS years.

You know, this is sort of I'm going to use a term that I don't want it to be disparaging, but it's like sort of the formula, you know, but it's not of the formulaic in a bad way.

It's just sort of these are, this is what R.E.M. is going to sound like, and here it is.

Yeah, it's part of their trademark sound, you know? Yeah.

[19:47] And I feel like this song, even more so than Radio Free Europe, like especially when you're talking about like Peter's guitar work, like he's doing the arpeggios, but he like, he'sadding a little something else to it.

Like, I feel like he's, he's really playing around the fretboard and the riffs just have like a, like he's like, it's kind of got a menacing sound.

The song is definitely darker than radio for Europe.

Agreed. But, you know, especially when you get like to the course of the song, it doesn't stay dark.

Like it, it, it opens up and that's kind of different.

For mike it's hard for mike mills to sound dark though isn't it oh yeah yeah when it comes to his bass playing and and the and you know vocals are just so oh yeah are so happy soundingalways, and uh on this song too i i believe you also get in the chorus um bill barry providing some backing vocals as well i think i know that i think when when i listen to the song at least ithink i hear Mike panned to the left and Bill's vocals panned to the right.

Ah, I'll have to give that a better listen on my cans, because I was also listening for those cricket sounds. Did you read about that?

[20:59] In the very last chorus, if you really listen hard when Michael's just doing the ahs by himself, you can hear crickets in the background, and that's because he went outside andrecorded that last chorus outside at night where there was crickets.

[21:18] And that's the kind of innovative stuff that they were doing with Easter, you know, um, Just trying, trying everything, throwing it to the wall and seeing what stuck.

Because like you mentioned earlier, it wasn't an elaborate studio.

So anything that they wanted to do sonically out of the norm, they had to think out of the box.

Yeah. And it, it actually, I think all of it really works.

And I don't know if it was their mindset that like, oh, okay, this might be our only time. We, you know, we have a chance to record in a studio, you know, because, you know, not everyband makes it.

Good point. And, you know, they sound hungry, which I'm sure there's a lame joke you can make with the title Wolves.

I'm not going to make it. But like, you know, this song has as much as that same energy as the Hip Tone Radio Free Europe.

Yeah. And it has like the same confidence. And like you said, it, you know, we don't really want to use the word formula because, you know, I do think that can make it sound like, oh,they're generic and they do the same composition over and over. And that's not true.

And, you know, especially albums on the road, they they really, you know, step out of the box. But absolutely.

[22:36] You know, this song, like it's sounds totally different than Raider for a year.

But yeah, it has a lot of the similar things. you know, arpeggios from from Peter Bill's drumming I think is like a, extremely impressive on this song like his hi-hat work at the in the introespecially when michael's vocals come in and he's singing suspicion yourself like he's doing these like kind of complicated patterns and then in that pre-chorus like he's like double timingit on the hi-hats and like it sounds great it's so solid yeah it might even be some of his best drum work you know again not to say that like you know albums down the road you know hewas playing less on the songs but like There's something about this song in particular, and, you know, this song might probably be my favorite on the EP.

Oh, I like Gardening at Night, but yeah. You know, yeah, to me it's kind of a tie between those two. Yeah.

But I feel like there's not a ton of songs with this kind of darker energy that's fast.

You get some darker R.E.M. songs down the road. Right. But sometimes they're slower, like Oddfellows or I Remember California.

Those are a little slower or they're darker. This one's dark and it's fast.

[23:55] Yeah, it's so strange to have a dark, up-tempo song like that.

Which is why I love a song like Accelerate way down the road that some people don't love, I've come to find out.

And it shocks me because people love this song. And I'm like, they have somewhere, but that's for another episode. But yeah.

[24:14] I, I really love everything about the song.

Lyrically, though, I, I've tried really hard to see if there's like a narrative to the song.

And I kind of think with Radio Free Europe, they're both kind of like he's using some cool words and themes.

But I don't really know if there is like an overall message. Yeah.

[24:35] No, I often call these, like, notebook songs, like, where, you know, there might be phrases here or there that they incorporate, but there's no necessarily connecting tissue to thosephrases, you know?

Yeah, I mean, there is a lot of cool phrases in the song. Suspicion yourself in a corner garden.

Like, what does that mean? But it sounds great, especially when Michael, like, belting it out.

Yeah. And I don't know if you've caught this, but when he sings in a corner garden, he starts to sing the word garden, and he kind of stops in the middle of the word, and Mike finishes itout.

He'll say, in a corner garden, and then Mike will go, din.

[25:19] And it's just cool. I can't think of a lot of bands who are that specific with their backing vocals.

Musicals well again like you said they were they were exploring this studio space this was.

[25:32] God man this was 18 months after they became a band they're in a studio recording this ep you're right they didn't know they were going to make it yet or not but to them this wasprobably making it, this was probably making it at the time right i mean this this ep moved 20 000 copies that's that's not nothing no and it i think it definitely helped them on the scene atthe time you know yeah yeah and of course i think murmur even takes them farther you know but um and one thing too i do think michael even though like you said like a lot of thesesongs are kind of notebook songs like he is starting to like connect things together a little bit um the there's a phrase in the the first line of the song where he sings don't get caught which isa phrase he also uses later on in this ep um and carnival of sorts wow okay and i and i don't know like you said it could be something maybe he wrote down he heard that phrase and likedit and just was able to put it in two different songs you know again i don't know the meaning you know like the phrase wolf at the door you know like you know those are phrases youknow i mean like i can think of another song um The Radiohead song, Wolf at the Door.

[26:52] That's right. You know, later on, Michael and Tommy York become actually really great friends.

[27:02] But yeah, I don't think these lyrics tell a story as much as conjure up these imagery.

You know, these images that really fit the music.

You know, Radio Free Air is more of a fun, bouncy song. This one's darker and more like a, you know, it's a driving song.

And I feel like, you know, the words Michael is singing are just, they help get that, the message of the music across more so than create a message itself.

Yeah, I think that's a good take. I think that's a great take.

And, you know, this song, I actually started to appreciate it more.

A couple years ago, I started listening to, they have a live album called Live at the Olympia. Yep.

And where they did a couple shows in Dublin.

And they were playing a lot of, I mean, they played, they didn't play all of this EP, but they played Wolves Lower.

They played Gardening in the Night. They played Carnival of Swords.

[28:06] And that version i really love that version of wolves lower um there's something about mike's bass that i think is that's my only maybe small issue with this recording and like yousaid this definitely has more of that indie kind of sound when it comes to the actual production, but mike's mill mike's mill's bass is i think mixed a lot better in that live album it's justmore up front and the only time that it really comes up front in this song is during that breakdown with the with sort of those with those noises those background i don't even know what tocall them that soundscape that's going on well yeah and i'm glad you brought that up because i i almost totally completely forgot about the bridge yeah this this bridge is like it's chaotic it'sreally short yeah very and um and i think this kind of goes back again to what we're talking talking about with like the band just trying everything in the studio and i know that mitcheaster said that they or he was a fan of craftwork which is a band i don't know a lot about right but i do wonder if some of that influence was kind of showing up on this album with someof their their choices like with that bridge like it's just these weird sounds like you said like i don't know know if they're percussion sounds or if they're keyboards um.

[29:28] But yeah it makes for chaotic sound but like you said you get mics like he's doing these like kind of pops on the bass that sound great yeah it sounds really cool but you're rightanywhere else other than that you don't really hear you know and when it's a driving song like that especially with the drum work you would expect to hear you know sort of a counterfrom the bass or not even a counter but um um like a tie-in you know like to the bass or to the drums but you don't really get that he's just more about like i think creating like a gluesubstance to the song with especially and i think that's because um bill's playing on the song is it's almost to me it's almost the highlight of the song the the drums on this song i think itneeded mike's bass playing to be a little bit bit more straightforward um okay but i if you do want to hear a great live version of the song definitely check out live with olimpia because thebass they turn his bass up a little bit in the mix and i think that makes the song just even slightly better than the studio version cool.

[30:33] Well, that's all I've got. Where do you sit in terms of, Mr.

Fountain of Knowledge, where do you sit in terms of Wolves Lower at this point?

Well, I definitely think that the guys at IRS made the right call by... Yeah.

And I love Ages of You.

In fact, that I think is one of the highlights on Dead Letter Office.

And that has its own cool story we'll get to when we get to that album.

Sure. But from hearing the small bit of Jazz Lips, yeah, I think they made the right call.

I think this is a great opener for the EP.

[31:13] I think if I was even the same age I am now, back in 1982, listening to this for the first time, this song would draw me in.

I would definitely want to listen to the rest of this EP and go, okay, what else is this band going to deliver? Because it's so exciting.

Um and i guess really quick in terms of of importance too this was actually their first music video that's right they recorded a music video for this even though the song wasn't really asingle as far as i'm aware like this that's one of the longer songs on the ep as well like so it's sort of strange yeah yeah so it's the second longest and none of the songs are neat were a singlebut they yeah and it's just a simple it's just them playing the song um you know it's It's not, it's definitely doesn't get close to some of the other music videos that become iconic.

That's right. But I do think it's important because I think music videos become important to the band later on in their career.

Big time. Yeah. So it's cool to think that they were, they were, you know, on the bleeding edge of making a music video for a, for an indie EP record on a small label.

[32:23] That's far out to have that kind of foresight, you know, like, Hey, this is a, they were, they were young and they were hip, right?

They knew what was happening. Yeah. So maybe not the song, maybe in terms of like comparing it to radio for Europe, isn't as important to their career.

I think it's, it's up there. And especially for this EP, I think this song is very important and yeah, it's, it's one of my favorites from the EP.

You're right. Gardening a night. We'll get to that. I think that's a good song to make a case for being like maybe the best, but for me, this is also up there with some of my favorite work oftheirs.

[32:59] Really at the end of the whole irs era but yeah specifically that's heavy praise wow yeah no i i don't know when you think of that catalog of irs songs yeah for you to single this oneout wow yeah and i don't know if it's because i just over this last week been listening to it for this episode and i did a song right up not that long ago within the last year for this song on onthe rem subreddit but yeah this song i've really been like okay yeah this is actually way better than i I ever thought it was.

I think we should highlight that before we wrap up. We should highlight that if you are into Reddit, Rico does a weekly article for the REM subreddit, a song of the week.

And he does a really great job breaking down the songs, both from a technical and emotional and lyrical perspective.

So check those out as well. They're going to be a good supplement to this podcast at some point.

[33:54] Well thank you yeah and that they definitely have helped me um that one helped me for this song, cool but i don't think i've done some of these other ones from this ep so i'mdefinitely going to be doing having to do some extra research here for these upcoming episodes nice well that's what we've got for you this week uh on behalf of rico this is jd saying blinkyour eyes and we'll be back.