Simplify Your Workflow to Keep Your Podcasting Passion Alive with Craig Constantine - EP 84

The Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice

How do conversation skills make your podcast process more enjoyable? Even if we’re lucky enough to “do what we love,” work tends to have tedious aspects we don’t like. Craig Constantine is a passion podcaster who, through the creation of thousands of episodes and rigorous reflection, has built a workflow that simplifies every step of his method, from prep to publication.

A consummate conversationalist, Craig’s overarching goal is to use understanding and compassion to have exciting exchanges that inspire listeners to dive directly into meaningful dialogues. In this episode, he gets into the nitty-gritty of the personal process that led him to discover his devotion to podcasting.

Let Craig’s passion inspire you to:

• Understand the difference between compassion and empathy in conversation

• Consider why you might not want to bring your prepared questions into the conversation

• Approach AI tools to create the perfect research assistant

• Simplify your process to make it more fun in the long run

Links worth mentioning from the episode:

• Listen to Episode 51, Honing Your Podcast Voice Through Second Language Learning with Stephanie Fuccio - https://www.organizedsound.ca/honing-your-podcast-voice-though-second-language-learning-with-stephanie-fuccio-episode-51/

Engage with Craig:

• Keep on top of what Craig is up to - https://craigconstantine.com/current-projects/

• Learn more about Craig’s podcasting mission - https://openandcurious.org/

Connect with Mary!

• Leave a voicemail with your feedback at https://www.speakpipe.com/VisibleVoice or email [e-mail]
• Get the full transcript of the episode at http://www.visiblevoicepodcast.com
• Read up on more secrets with the Visible Voice Insights Newsletter https://www.organizedsound.ca/newsletter
• To learn more or work with Mary, check out https://www.organizedsound.ca
• Link up on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marychan-organizedsound/
• Engage on Instagram @OrganizedSoundProductions https://www.instagram.com/organizedsoundproductions

Show Credits:

• Podcast audio design, engineering, and edited by Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions
• Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co.
• Show notes written by Shannon Kirk of Right Words Studio
• Post-production support by Kristalee Forre of Forre You VA

Transcript with Audio Description:

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MARY: Every podcast is unique, not only in its content, but also how you produce and create it. That workflow that I've talked about before, no one way is the right way or wrong way to create a podcast. And that's actually what I love about today's guest Craig Constantine.

He's all about his passion project, podcasts of having conversations. His goal of having a podcast will be different from yours, but what I really resonated with him is his desire to audit his own workflow. What's working for him before, during, and after the recording.

Craig Constantine, who's on a mission to create better conversations, to spread understanding and compassion, is a passionate podcaster. He does a lot of things that I know podcasters want to do, but never make the time to do it. So he's here to share how he's got multiple shows to his name with hundreds and hundreds of conversations published to share his podcasting journey. You can hear the passion in his voice for the work and the dialogue that he wants to have. So take a listen to this episode on how he analyzes his podcast to make things simpler for his world and how you can make similar reflections on yours.

This is episode number 84 of the Podcaster's Guide to a Visible Voice.

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MARY: Craig, thank you so much for coming on the show. We've had a great little preamble so far, so I know this is going to be a good one.

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CRAIG: Oh, no pressure. But thank you so much for inviting me. You get the prize for, of all the people who ever asked me to be on their show, you're the one who worked the hardest. So thank you so much for that.

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MARY: A lot of logisticals behind the scene, and, you know, personal schedules and stuff.

CRAIG: You actually hunted me down. You asked me through a service that we're both on, and I totally ghosted you, like a lot of people. And then you went and found my website and found my contact form and emailed me, and I'm like, wow, all right, this person is motivated. Yes, I want to be on the show.

MARY: Well, what you do is intentional practice of conversations, and I think that is so unique because a lot of people find podcasting as like, oh, I can talk, I'll just plug a microphone in and start talking. > But what is intentional conversation? Why is it so important to you?

CRAIG: Well, it's important to me because I found myself having more and more really great conversations, and that's like a whole separate story. And the more that I learned how to shut up and listen, which took me longer than it should have, the more I shut up and listened, the more I enjoyed the conversations and the more other people seemed to enjoy them. And then the people lurking around it enjoyed them too.

So I started wondering, well, this isn't new. Humans have been doing this for a long time. And the more that I looked into it, now I have a books problem. You know, like, oh, here's a book from 150 years ago where somebody had all these things. And then I started having conversations that I was intentionally picking challenging guests. Not that the people were challenging, but, like, I have no knowledge about the topic we're going to have this conversation about, then, what would the skills be that I would need to have that be a good conversation when I'm totally floundering every second of the way?

And I'm like an autodidact nerdy self learner. So it works well for me to be like, whoa, that sucked. That was horrible. And then I, like, write down, why did suck? What was wrong with it? How could I make it better? So I'm always preaching, like, you know, take notes and reflect, um, on your conversations, reflect on your life in general, and figure out, could I try something different next time? Or maybe that just, it happened. The bird flew into my head. That, that went weird.

MARY: So then what do you need then to have a conversation? Because, you know, you were saying, I stopped talking, so I listened. But when people think of dialogue, well, you gotta talk. So how do you define that art of conversation?

CRAIG: That's a really hard question. That's two different questions. How do I define the art of conversation? I'm gonna ignore how I define it. That's hard. I would say that you actually, you don't really have to talk for it to be a good conversation. And a lot of times when I'm having conversations with people, they are already aware of my, my issues of, like, wanting to dig into the meta.

But even when I'm talking to people who don't know anything at all about me, they have an agenda and the real question is, when you're having a conversation with someone, is the other person aware of their own agenda? That's really, like, determines are we going to have a spectacular conversation. So Mary has ideas about where this conversation is supposed to go, ideas about what she wants the two of us to find here for the people who are listening. So that's like the biggest switch or choice. Like, when I'm having a conversation with someone, I'm, as best I can, always intentional about why I'm here, what I'm saying, why I'm saying, and I'm always curious, like, what is the other person thinking when they started talking? Were they just talking at me because they haven't seen me in a week, or are they really interested in something?

So that's like, the first thing is like, are both people on the same page about what does it mean to have a good conversation? Some people, they just talk. I'm not saying that's bad. It's just, you know, that's a deli conversation that's going to be a little more shallow maybe, or a little different.

MARY: Yeah. What about then in the role of podcasting? That being intentional piece, do you then prep your questions and you have your set questions, or do you allow that conversation to unfold? Because, like you said, everyone's got an agenda.

CRAIG: Yes. It depends on what you mean by you. So if you mean, does Craig? I generally don't write down my questions anymore in the very, very beginning, which would be like 2017. So I was kind of late to the party, but when I started, yes, I used to be intentional about, the show was all about movement, I would be intentional about, I'm going to talk to this person because I have this question or this story I want to know. And I would write down my questions, and I would imagine, like if I wasn't thinking story arc, but I was kind of imagining a story arc about, I want to start here and then I want to go here, and I want to end over there if I can.

So in the beginning, yes, I totally did that. And I got heavily involved in coaching podcasters. I've literally helped thousands of people as an assistant coach in courses. And that's a very good question for people to ask. So I say yes, in the beginning, write literally, preferably with a pencil, not like typing on your computer, because writing is different than typing.

MARY: Yeah,

CRAIG: Write your questions out in whatever your chicken scratch looks like. And then when you get to the recording, don't bring your notes. That's what I tell people, because the notes will distract you. I have a blank piece of paper on the table in front of me just in case I need to write something down. But when you go into those recordings as the host, all of that homework that you did, you're not going to forget it. It's going to be in the back of your head.

So I would say yes, I used to write things down, and I do recommend that that's a great place to start. And then eventually I can hold the questions in my head for weeks. I think about someone, you know, and I listened to one of your episodes as I was preparing for this, and I had, oh, that's interesting. And I see the kinds of things that Mary is attracted to, and I feel like I have enough things in my head that I could, I don't want to, but we could probably flip this around, and I could probably, you know, be the host if I had to, but I don't want to. > That's, if you ask Craig, how Craig does it, how does everybody else do it? I don't think people write their questions down based on what I hear, When I hear people.

MARY: Certain shows, there are some shows where it's like, bam, bam, bam, question, question. There was, like, no follow up. And I feel like, yeah, that's not good either.

CRAIG: Right. That's the other problem. That's the opposite of prepared.

MARY: Yeah, exactly. So then if you don't write your questions, it feels a lot to me, too, about when I worked in radio, we called this show prep. You know, it's all about being prepared and kind of knowing, like you said, that agenda. But having the follow up questions are the sparks in that conversation. So do you then, have, like, a toolbox of ways to guide a conversation, or like,...

CRIAG: Oh yeah.

MARY: …those. Oh yeah? Yeah. Okay, What is that?

CRAIG: So there's a whole bunch of them, and rather than try to rattle them off, but just kind of, like, paint kind of what they are.

MARY: Yeah.

CRAIG: I have these ideas in mind about, I have a visual, I live, like, 2 hours from Manhattan, so I've been there a bunch of times. And if you ever walk down Broadway is, like, the biggest street, you can walk the whole length of the place. I imagine that in conversations, I'm walking with someone.

So if I'm talking with someone and something strange happens, like, they ask me a question that I wasn't expecting, or they give me a strange answer, or they stopped, like, something weird happens. I'm imagining they, like, turned left into a side street. And my reaction needs to be not, wait, where are you going? Yeah, come back. My reaction needs to be, well, that's interesting. And follow, like, go with them. So I'm always trying to listen, air quoting is useless, you can't even see. I'm trying to listen not only to the words that they're saying, but the emotions that they're conveying. The emotions maybe they're trying to convey, which could be different, and try to imagine what is the experience that that person is having.

So I'm always yammering about my mission is about creating better conversation to spread understanding and compassion and empathy is close, but I think empathy is a thing that might come later after understanding and compassion. And I feel like that is what I'm trying to do, is I'm trying to deploy understanding and compassion as a tool.

So in a conversation, when something weird happens, I'm thinking, do I understand? Like, that's my first thought is, do I really understand what just happened here? Like, maybe I don't understand and I should ask a question about what just happened here. So I have, like, lots of nerdy tools that I can bring up, but they all fit in that toolbox of my first, you know, do I understand? And then, am I being compassionate? Is this person freaking out because Craig's too energetic for them? Like, that happens to people. I understand.

MARY: You mentioned empathy, and I feel like empathy is very similar to compassion.

CRAIG: Yes.

MARY: So how do you differentiate that?

CRAIG: The way that I think of it is that empathy is about the feeling and compassion is about, I don't want to say doing something about it, but imagining what could be done, either generally or that I should be doing. So, empathy, if you're empathic and you can't distance yourself from that, that's really hard. That's people who, like, if the elections go bad and then they have, like, a nervous breakdown, I’m like, well, okay, I mean, you're feeling for those other people, but you really need to be able to control that. You have to have boundaries. You have to be able to protect yourself physically and emotionally.

So, empathy, I think of as like, a feelers reaching out, sensitivity. And even I would say I'm pretty empathic. But even if you're really empathic, you really never know. You really can't say, I know what you're feeling, but that would be the goal, would be to feel outward. And then the compassion is, all right if I understand what's going on and I have some empathy for the person, the situation, or whatever we're talking about, then I might, if I'm a compassionate person, I might begin to imagine, is there something I could do about that? Could I help that person pick up whatever they dropped? Or could I donate money to this charity? Or could I help push this car out of a snowbank? That's the kind of thing that I do because I'm a large guy, you know.

But if you didn't have empathy for the person who was stuck in the snowbank, you'd just be like, sucks to be you. And you'd walk right by, you know? So that's why when I wrote my mission. That's why I wrote compassion rather than empathy, because I feel like empathy, I don't want to say it's easier, but I felt like I already had enough empathy and I wanted to work on the compassion part. So very, the mission is very specific to me, of course.

MARY: What about then, if you're in a conversation with someone and you don't agree?

CRAIG: That depends on why I'm in the conversation. So I don't do journalistic interviews, just because it's not my cup of tea. But I've listened to a lot of journalists talk about their process. And, yeah, if you're a journalist and you're supposed to be getting facts or truth or you're trying to, you know, uncover a particular story, if people say something you disagree with, you need to push back, and you can push back nicely. You can ask clarifying questions. You can, you know, throw in juxtapose. I thought it was X. You can make jokes. There are ways to reveal questions without actually asking questions, which then lets the two of us stand in one place and point at the question over yonder without it getting very antagonistic.

So there are things you can do to sort of direct, or in this case, redirect the conversation where you hope it would go. But that's not normally what I do because I'm not a journalist looking for something I don't have, like a target I'm aiming for, which kind of cuts both ways. Not having a target makes it harder because I think it would be easier if I knew where I was supposed to be going. So I don't often find myself in situations where, no, that's wrong, and I need to get you to tell me the other thing, so.

MARY: Yeah, it's just a matter of, okay, yes, you've said what you've said now. Oh, I'm going to ask you this question to, to redirect.

CRAIG: Yeah, ask more questions. Ask different questions. You were asking for about tools earlier. I sometimes talk about people's salience, the word salience. Humans are spectacular at noticing salience. I always say I'm afraid of three kinds of snakes, little snakes, big snakes, and any stick that looks anything at all like a snake. So snake fear and, like, falling. These are wired in.

So there are other things, in conversations when you're listening to someone and you have an agenda and a story arc and a plan, and your brain suddenly goes, wait, what? And, like, it grabs these two things. The thing that you thought you were going to ask about and the thing that just lit you up, you have these two. Those things are related. I'm telling you, they are. That's what your brain just went, these are related. And you could just say, I wonder if these two things are related. You can just say that I do that and give people two, you know, like cheese and sneakers, and people will go, huh, that's a really good question. And then they'll think about it, and it's.

Conversations are just people sharing ideas. There's no rules about my ideas have to follow logically and clearly from the last. It can be whatever two people want to share. So I really feel like people, like I've said, I've seen a lot of people do this. A lot of people take courses and say, how do I do interviews? They really undervalue this magical, I don't want to say device, because your brain's not a computer, but, like, this magical power that you have about identifying the things that light you up. That already works. So that's probably what your podcast is about. If you have a day job as a journalist, then you got to work a little harder, because now you have to. You have to aim those tools at a specific. My producer said, I must do X.

MARY: Yes.

CRAIG: Just a little harder.

MARY: Yeah. Like you were saying we're not computers, right? This. This isn't an AI interview.

CRAIG: Whew, good.

MARY: You know, we are humans. We have emotion. We have feelings in our bodies that will then guide us to. Okay, what is that curiosity piece? What is that follow up question?

CRAIG: Why am I upset all of a sudden?

MARY: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, like, go with that feeling in your body and make sure that, you say it out loud.

CRAIG: Yeah. A lot of times, just naming the thing goes a long way toward helping both parties understand, because sometimes people say something and, you know, somebody's triggered, and if you're really good at hiding that, well, that's not helping anybody. I mean, maybe if you're really triggered, you're trying to leave the space. Okay. But if it's the kind of thing that can be discussed, people can't read minds. I used to make that error a lot. I'm like, the other person opposite me is fuming. And I don't know.

MARY: Yep. You can still hear it in their voice, even though you can't see them fuming. Like in the podcasting world.

CRAIG: Yeah. Audio is magical.

MARY: Yeah. Is magical that way, for sure.

Let's move into a little bit with your podcasting journey. You have two active shows right now. Even one show is a lot, like, how. How do you manage all of this?

CRAIG: Oh, I actually have. Well, if you want to count accurately, I have five active shows.

MARY: You have five active, oh geeze.

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CRAIG: Okay. All right. So how do I manage it? I have a pride problem. I love, you know, shiny things. I love to go after them.

So the very first show that I created, I did not set out to make a podcast. I didn't say, I want to become a podcaster. This is the thing I want to do. I was literally having cool conversations in movement spaces. I would be out, like, in London running and jumping and playing with people at an event or doing a thing, and then I'm the kind of person who just walks up to someone and says, whoever they are, oh, hey, and we start talking.

And then I turn around, there's people walking behind us because I'm talking to somebody semi-famous. And then they say, you should have recorded that. I would have listened to that. That's literally how I got into podcasting. Then I was like, well, I guess I should get some SM58 mics and a little interface. I just started basically pressing record on conversations that I was having. So I'm super lucky, super privileged that that happened to me.

So that's how I started into it in 2017. And I did, like, 40 episodes with no clue what I was doing. Just like, you know, like, I don't know, let's try this. I had a friend who knew how to edit. I'm like, hey Brian, and he's like, use this mic and get this interface. And, you know, like, people just giving me tips. And I went about, like, 35 or 40 episodes along. And then I took a course. And I took the course not, and it's. It was a sofa, I call it sofa to 5K. I had a podcast course, and I already knew all that. I had 40 episodes out.

MARY: Yeah.

CRAIG: But I wanted to completely tear it apart, and I did. I took it all apart, and I, like, changed the descriptions, and the course made me think about things differently. It was one of the greatest things I ever did. And I met a whole bunch of people who were passionate about podcasting. That was the third time they ran the course. I went back as an assistant coach for 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11, for the runnings of the course, till they stopped the course.

And along the way, I kept having more ideas. So the first show was, I was having conversations. People wanted to hear them. But the next show which came out, I was like, I wonder what would happen if you did a daily podcast. That was just me for 30 seconds reading a quote every day and didn't tell anybody. Just, like, stealth launched the thing. So I did 1,400 episodes of that show.

And then while that show was going on, I started a podcasting community, and I started interviewing the other podcasters in the community and working my way up with, like, who should I talk to after I did a show? And that show was all about podcasting.

So once I fell backwards into it and figured out how to do it, then it became this. Like, I imagine painters might just, oh, I got a paint. They run to the easel and they start painting. And, like, I do that with podcasting. I, like, I run to the microphone and I start making. Or I get people and I make a recording. So that's how I wound up with all these shows. It's really not any harder to have five shows. It's just, how many episodes are you doing? That's all that really matters.

MARY: Yes.

CRAIG: So, uh, you also, I haven't forgotten, you asked me, how do I do it? But if you want to follow up on that before I tell you how I do it. Or I can just tell you how I do it.

MARY: Yeah, how do you do it?

CRAIG: How do I do it? I'm a checklist and process nerd. So I have, for every one of the shows, I have a separate document that I maintain that tells me every detail. Like, this is the, you get an e nine minor guitar chord, goes here as the music bumper, and then the intro, and it has every step all the way through to emailing the guests at the end to say, thank you, your show is published. Here's the, you know, please share.

And if you do ten of those, then you'll be editing your list. And then the list gets a little more detailed. And eventually, all of the things that used to make me get stuck, I don't want to do the editing. I’m, I don't like editing. Oh, I don't want to do the show notes. All these things that I get stuck on. I just kept making it simpler. What's the simplest thing that could possibly work? And that's what I, and I broke it down to more and more steps until, when I look at the checklist, I have an episode that you go out sometime this week, and the next checkbox is so easy. I'm like, you know, I could totally do that, that I could do that.

And that's. That was how I broke it down, was to just make it simple enough that I could find a simple next step for whatever was going on. And then the checklist helped me remember. So if I'm not doing anything for three weeks. When I come back. Oh, right, here's where I was. Here's how I start, here's how I finish.

MARY: What's an example of making it simpler? What does that mean?

CRAIG: So we were talking about AI before. I use ChatGPT to write the episode notes. Shhh. I say that at the bottom, I wrote, written with, actually, it's written with help from ChatGPT.

MARY: Yes. I was just going to say, I like that you have it written down.

CRAIG: I'm a computer nerd, but I'm not an AI. Like to me, I was like everybody else, a what? How do you work this? I had no clue. But I have a checklist that helps me prompt the AI to give me what I want. So just like little nuances of sentences, like I'm resisting urge to open it up and read them, but it's like these really detailed, like, I want, say, I want one sentence to be the hook sentence for the thing that might be like 120 word paragraph that I've slowly fiddled with and kept in a document.

So now when I learn what the hook sense, that it's like copy, paste, and it actually says, write me five variations of a sentence and then it tells it what to do and then it writes me five sentences and I look at them and none of them are good enough. But somebody, once I forget where this comes from, somebody said, working with AI fixes the blank page problem, so you should totally use it for everything because it will do a terrible job and you will rush to fix it’s work. And it gets me going every time.

So like, I rush and I'm like, no, no, you cannot use the word delve. No, no, no, edit the sentence, right? And then I edit my instructions and I say, you may not use the word delve. Put that in the instructions. So now when I have to write episode notes for like, say, a 15 minute conversation, I'm like, I can do that in 3 minutes. Watch this. > And I'm all done, you know, copy and paste and, and I have to edit, you know, like everybody has their personal writing style. I don't bother to try and make it do my style. I just edit the thing. I look at the paragraph and I go, hey, I don't like this part. Edit it. And then at the bottom I just write, written with help from ChatGPT.

I tell everybody who asks, like podcasters. It's like having the greatest research assistant. This person is tireless. They have infinite patience. No matter how many dumb questions I ask, they're just like, here's your answer. You can, like, just ghost them for two weeks, come back, they pick up right where you left off without a single. As long as you realize it's really more about, I think of it like the first stage on the rocket launch. Get me moving, get me off the ground here so I can get a feel for what this thing is supposed to be. And that's what I use it for.

MARY: What about not AI? What can you make simpler? That has nothing to do with AI, because that's what everybody's talking about these days.

CRAIG: I stopped editing my shows. How about that one? If you've listened to, so the one show is called Movers Mindset is 170 episodes. I think Podtalk is at 150 or something like that. And basically the last hundred plus maybe 150 episodes on those two shows that I've released. I don't edit the audio.

Now, full disclosure, I'm actually hard of hearing. I have hearing aids and crappy hearings. I'm a terrible audio editor to begin with, but I also can't afford to pay ninety cents a minute to edit all this stuff. So I went, well, what if I had a conversation that was so good, there wasn't anything that had to be cut out? How would you do that? Yes, and then work on that for 300 conversations. I've done about 500 recorded conversations for my shows, for other shows, not counting my guesting appearances. And every time I do them, I listen back and I'm like, why did I say that? Why didn't I shut up? > Because a lot of times the guest is about to say the great thing, and I'm still like, wait, you got to hear me. It's like, no, I'm the host. Shut up.

So I've looked at, like, exactly what percentage of myself, when I'm the host, do I want in the audio? The answer is 25%. I want one quarter Craig and three quarters of the guest. And I occasionally drop that into Otter, which will give you a percentage speaker rating. And I make sure I'm at the target number that I want. And if I'm over or under, then I think about that for my next conversation.

So, if you don't want to edit, could you just make the conversations better? Could you screen out people who are poor speakers unless you really need them? Like, there can be issues sometimes. I won't really want to guess because I want that representation. I really want this voice to be heard of. So I'm willing to live with thumbs and aahs and pauses. Just put it out raw you know, edit the levels, run the anti white noise background thing, 30 seconds. I mean, sometimes I'm, I have a 45 minutes conversation. It takes me five minutes to go from raw audio to mp3, final mix down, including the time it takes my Mac to make the mp3. It's, you know, because otherwise I wouldn't get it done if I didn't cut that corner.

And there are other ones, like, I stopped doing introductions in the guest. Like, I never, when I'm recording, I never ask the guest to tell me who they are. Tell us, no, that's a disaster. And I don't. I don't read that in anymore for a while. I would open the show by saying, oh, my guest today is. I skipped all that. I got tired of recording intros and outros because I actually don't think people listen to them. So I skip them. My show opens, and I say, Hello, I'm Craig Constantine. There's like a sentence or two of what the show is. And then I asked the guest the first question, and we just have a conversation.

There are other things about, oh, I can only do so much social media. So I have a WordPress plugin. I hit a button, and it just posts the three platforms. And then I'm like, good enough. Yep. I'm not making short form. I figured out how to do YouTube auto load from RSS. Good enough.

MARY: Done. Yes.

CRAIG: Moving on. I just looked at every single thing on the list that was in my head, and I went, this is stressing me out. Write it down. And then when I looked at the list written down, I identified, I can't do this. This is too much. I want to have hundreds, thousands of great conversations, and I don't want to do all these pieces. So delete pieces until I only want to do the part between record and stop and anything else that I absolutely have to, to make the show go out.

MARY: And I think that's the difference, too, between people who are podcasting as a passion, like you do, or those who are like, I need to generate income, so I have to do X, Y, and Z, right? So it's like talking about that agenda piece. You were, you were saying at the very beginning, it's like, what is your goal for your podcast? So what would you define as success, then, for your podcast?

CRAIG: Oh. Sometimes people can read each other's minds. I was listening to some of your shows, and that's a question you ask often because it's super important. And I'm like, this would be the spot where we need to talk about what Craig thinks success is.

Success, in my opinion, for my shows is so for the two shows that have guests, if somebody listens to an episode and then they manage to email in real life, whatever, talk to the guest and they can skip over the parts that make conversations suck and go right to the good part. That's the definition of success for my show.

So one of the shows is all about parkour and has french names and all these things, and there's people who run and jump and play all over the world, and everybody's pretty famous that I'm talking to. If they, somebody runs into that person and says, hey. And just goes right to the part of the conversation where both of them are enjoying it. Not, my guest, who's semi famous is like, oh, another fan. But where the fan comes up and says something and that person goes, oh, yeah, I'd love to talk about that.

Like, that's my definition of success. People listen to the episodes that I did, and that enables them to have a better conversation with that person, even if it's just email or, you know, direct messaging or whatever. That may be a weird definition of success, but it turns out to be hard to do that. But it only means I have to have a certain kind of conversation. It doesn't mean that I have to advertise or, you know, kill myself in editing, I hope.

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MARY: Yeah.

CRAIG: That nobody listens.

MARY: That's always the podcaster problem.

CRAIG: Yeah.

MARY: Nobody's listening.

CRAIG: Well, there's only one problem and lots of problems.

MARY: So what are some other problems that you have with podcasting?

CRAIG: Uh, I spend too much time on it. Spend too much time on it. It's like I have an embarrassment of riches. So I understand. I'm not claiming this is weird, but I understand why people say they're nervous about reaching out to guests. I do not have that problem. I'm a computer nerd. I have something like 600 guests. I'm not exaggerating in queues. And I wrote software that mails me weekday mornings that suggests, you know, you mailed this person three weeks ago and they never got back to you, so you probably should message them again. Like, I wrote software to keep track of all that, so that I can just turn the crank. I do the fun part, which is, new email, Hey, Bob, would you like to be on the show? Or like that kind of thing?

People mention a guest to me and I put it in a certain little config file, and I don't forget, two years later, it comes up. And then when I look at the notes, I know who recommended them. And maybe I, maybe they said, I'd really like to hear them talk about X. Like, I figured out a way to capture that stuff. You can do it with pieces of paper or excel spreadsheet, whatever you like.

I think a lot of the struggle with guest outreach is in it's just an infinite number of threads. Like, it's complex, and it's always going to be complex. Don't put your friends into customer relationship management software. That doesn't make it better. So I just figured out, well, what would this have to be for me to enjoy doing this?

So I have, the other problem is, if I turn that crank, if I start messaging people, I can do like five touches in a day in like ten minutes, because I just send an email, send a thing, go to whatever platform they're on. You do that for a few days, then people start showing up in your calendar. And like, that's the other side is make sure people can schedule themselves in using Calendly or something.

If I'm not careful, all of a sudden it takes about two to three weeks. Three weeks out, all of a sudden it's like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, I have all these podcast recordings scheduled. And even if I say one show per day, I can still wind up with two or three on one day because I have multiple shows. > That's my problem. I removed all of the sticky points, and I really wasn't paying attention to that means it's all going to go really fast. So I have to like, woah, slow down and try to keep it under control.

MARY: Wow, you definitely have a very unique challenge.

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CRAIG: Nice choice of words that you're going to say, that’s very special.

MARY: Earlier you were talking about, you got a lot of advice. You give advice about podcasting. So what was one advice that you got that did, you know, good. You're like, you know what, this is an advice that's out in the podcasting space, don't follow it.

CRAIG: Oh, well, it's, uh, a similar version of that. Question is, what's something I disagree with that everybody else would be mad at me, and that's that you have to publish on a schedule. That's the piece of advice that I patently, I started on that at one point, I had a show that was all over the map, and I actually had hired someone to work on my team. I said, job one, get me on a schedule, which meant get the guest work and all that stuff. And I got on a schedule and I published every week for like a year and a half. I have completely given up, I don't care about, I don't care about schedules. So I said, like, mary, when was my last episode put out?

MARY: I'd have to look, I don't know.

CRAIG: Right? I mean, even if you went and listened, it's okay if you didn't. I don't think Craig is that interesting. But, even if somebody goes and listens to one of my shows, thing they look at is not the publication date. They go to the chronological list. They want to listen to the most recent one. Maybe they scroll back and listen to the trailer, or maybe they search for a word.

So I think that the advice to get yourself on a schedule. Okay. If it's your first episode, yes. Get on a schedule for five or ten or something, seven. But have it in your mind that you're planning on getting off the schedule, or you're at least planning on slowing way down. Because weekly, if you're. If you're, like, a one man band, and if you're doing things by all by yourself, weekly is insane.

MARY: Oh, yeah.

CRAIG: Even if it's hostile, weekly is like the treadmill. So I, I think that's the advice that it's super useful if someone is literally starting out on the sofa to 5K journey of podcasting. Yes. You need to imagine how do I, because it teaches you to close the loop. If I start here and I got to do all these steps, and I got to be done by next week, because I got to do it all over again, and then you start to think, oh, can I do the guest outreach in parallel? So I was working multiple guests, could I work ahead? So I got one or two in the can I. It teaches you those things. But then once you learn those lessons, then let go of having to publish on a schedule is my advice that I think didn't serve me because I took the course and people said that, and I was at 40, and I was like, yeah, I already want to get off this.

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MARY: Get off this, because it is a lot of work and a lot of pressure on yourself to make sure it goes out at a certain day and time.

CRAIG: Yeah. And, like, your die hard listeners, I've had people talk about. We talk about feedback and hearing from your fans. I've had people come up to me at, like. Like, I bump into them in person, and they talk about the show, and I've had people say to me, I can't keep up. Like, sometimes they drop, like, three or four in one week, and people are like, what are you doing? I can't listen to all this. It's too much content.

MARY: That is a lot!

CRAIG: Well, it is, but from my side, it's not. And I just had. It was a 30, 40 minutes conversation. I had a blast. It was awesome. And then I blasted through the post production, right? Sometimes I'm done, and if I'm really flying, I can be done in 45 minutes. I hit stop. The guest hasn't even, like, finished with their. You know, and I'm like, I'm done. It's crazy.

MARY: So wait, why not then? Wait. Like, okay, if you've got this back, not back log. Like, then why not schedule?

CRAIG: Because then the next week, I did three more, and then the next week I did three. Was like, well, there's another scheduled to, you know, never. And I also. I felt bad sometimes. I don't know, there's something about it. Everybody says, you always love all of your children the most. And every one of them, when I'm done with them, I'm like, that's the best thing I've ever created that has to go out right now.

It's part of my drive to make and do and create. And I feel like when I hit stop, I'm doing a disservice. I'm sitting on something I shouldn't be sitting on. And I have had some weird situations where I had some that I sat on for, like, ten months because I get nervous about that. Like, why isn't this done, well, because I can't get a transcript from the thing. I got stuck on details.

So, I really just love. I don't know, I love the feeling of, wow, I had a great conversation, and now everybody else can hear it with as little time between those two statements as I can get.

MARY: Okay then, I'm checking out the time. Like, I had scheduled a certain amount of time with you, but then it got me thinking, then, do you schedule, like, a certain amount of time, or do you just let this conversation go? Because, like, I think I can talk to you for hours, right? And I literally mean that, you know, people say that on shows, but, you know, there has to be an end.

CRAIG: Oh, I guess this is like a whole nother show. Okay, so I will say, yeah, you got 60 seconds before the time you allotted. However, I do not have a hard stop. So you could, if you want to record a second shows worth of material, knock yourself out.

Here's what I will say. People often ask if they're. If they're good podcasters, it occurs to them to ask, how do I have a good ending to my conversation? How do I have a good ending to my show, if I have a host and guest situation, and I always say, well, the first thing you can do is cross off anything that you know that won't work.

So, if you want to have a good ending, do not stop when the show sucks. > Right? So the friction and this is good. You always want to feel this as a host when you're on your show. This is great. This is where we should stop when you feel that tension of, this is awesome because people are going to slap their headphones off and go, that was awesome. And they're going to be like, they're going to go talk to somebody about the show or they're going to share it or whatever.

I mean, maybe don't stop right in the middle of an idea. But that part where we all want to go, wow, that was great. Now what do I ask? Oh, wait, there's more, Mary, let's talk about that. Don't do that. Just go, that was awesome. Thanks so much, Mary. It was a pleasure talking to you today. And hit stop. Hit stop when you're going is great, and you'll be good. Then there are a couple other little tips. Conversations go in, I call them saccades, not cicadas, the insect. Saccades, is a reference to how you move your eyes when you're reading. I don't know if people talk about cicadas in conversation, but, um, I'm doing it. There's a saccade to conversation. It's follow the bouncing ball, and it's about 20 minutes per hop on a conversation.

MARY: I've heard about that. Yeah, yeah.

CRAIG: And you might need to do people going, what? You might need to do a few hundred conversations to get out your metrics and look at the things. And what happens is, if you just let that bouncing ball go, you can't really stop at 30 if you're in the middle of a bounce and you can't really stop at the 20 minutes because that's the sucky part in the middle where you need to have a follow up question to get us back to the >.

So that’s another thing is to understand, like, as a host on your show, understand some of the dynamics of conversation. Have your, have your conceptual head only if you can manage it. Only half in the show, half out of the show, watching the clock, knowing what you wrote that you wanted to get to, that you haven’t got to yet. So, you know, oh, I have to get this one more thing. The next bounce of the saccade is going to be this. If you can manage to stay out. That’s hard. Then that lets you have some of that. You know, you can have your head. You like old gopher, you know, like you stand up, you look around a little bit. Okay, let's go back into the next 20 minutes. So that's the, those are the things that I think about when I'm trying to figure out where to stop.

Really. Just don't stretch. You get to the end and it's awesome, and somebody says something profound, just say, that was awesome.

MARY: That was awesome, Craig.

CRAIG: But I did it on purpose.

MARY: I know.

CRAIG: But, like, it's tough to do that when you're ahead. When you're really as a host, if you're having an awesome conversation, you get completely lost. That's good tape.

MARY: So, yeah, that is. But I always end my show with the same question, and I'm going to let you go. So my last question for you is, what are you excited about podcasting right now?

CRAIG: I totally should have prepared for that because I heard that what am I excited about podcasting? Well, in case people couldn't tell, I'm not excited about anything. I'm really excited about more people are starting to want to talk to me about conversation, and that's great because that means that I'm either, well I'm going to say I'm not doing something offensive. At least it means that things aren't going badly pessimistic.

So I'm really excited about having the chance. It's been happening more often to have conversations like this, where the whole thing is very meta about conversation. So that's really kind of makes me want to start another show. > I'm going to do more of this, but I'm not going there. So that's what I'm going to say. I'm really excited about and getting back, I was mentioning before I was sick, so I'm, like, on a pause at the moment. So I'm excited to get back to having more conversations, but it's really. I feel like I'm getting more interest in talking about talking.

MARY: Yeah, I think that's what we need, because it's that human connection that we're all craving, you know?

CRAIG: Oh, yeah.

MARY: So thank you so much for this human connection with me and for the conversation.

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CRAIG: My distinct pleasure. Thanks for inviting me.

MARY: Thanks so much, Craig. I love the enthusiasm in his voice and for the work that he does. And, you know, during the conversation, he mentioned saccades and following the bouncing ball. I love that he brought up how conversations cycle through around 20 minutes, and we talked about this before, actually, in a previous episode with Steph Fuccio in number 51, we talked about Honing Your Podcast Voice Through Second Language Learning, and Steph had done similar research as well. She mentioned that same phenomenon around 20 minutes for a conversation. So if you want to revisit that episode number 51, the link is in the show notes.

So after listening to this conversation, what advice would you take from Craig's podcasting journey for your own show? Now, like I said on the show in the beginning, his podcast is a passion project and his success is not going to be the same as your success. So we're not saying you need to follow what he is doing. Like the way how he doesn't schedule. Scheduling is important to some people because it provides them structure and to make sure they do things so that they go out. Craig's really great at finding out what works for him, so I hope this episode makes you think about what could potentially really work for you. It's his idea of making things simpler. That's what he found works for him. But what does that mean for you?

Send me a voice note with your feedback at VisibleVoicePodcast.com. you'll find the purple button that says send voicemail. From there, click on that, send me your feedback, and let me know what would be simpler for your podcasting workflow. Or as always, you can email me as well [e-mail].

On the next episode we're talking voice tips. How do we embrace our voice as a tool? We think of podcasting as an easy thing to do where you can plug in your microphone and just start talking, but it's not as easy as that. We'll explore more of your voice next time.

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MARY: Thank you so much for listening to the podcaster's guide to a Visible Voice. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you share it with a podcasting friend. And to reveal more voicing and podcasting tips, click on over to VisibleVoicePodcast.com. Until next time.

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