Marketing and Media Relations - Live Episode 2

Marketing Study Lab - Actionable Marketing Knowledge

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Guest: Justin Goldstein (https://www.linkedin.com/in/goldsteinjustin/) Topic: Marketing and Media Relations

Discussion Points • Mentioning the C word or Politics • Being an asset to the media • What the media want from you • Becoming an expert / spokesperson • The value of podcasts

Link to the live video:https://www.linkedin.com/video/live/urn:li:ugcPost:6710246143399358464/

Enjoy the Episode - Happy Marketing!

Website Thingy: www.marketingstudylab.co.uk The Professional Bit: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petersumpton/ Facebook Community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/marketingstudylab/ Tweet Tweet: https://twitter.com/cousinp81

Transcript (this transcript isn’t 100% accurate but provides a decent representation of the conversation – soz for any confusion)

Peter Sumpton

Hello and welcome. My name is Peter Sumpton, marketing consultant and Lego master of marketing and you're listening to the marketing study lab podcast live. Well, this bit isn't live, but the rest of it is. You'll hear a bit about that later. I mean, now, let's crack on. These episodes are taken from my live show marketing and where we look at the relationship between marketing and a specific topic. Subject or specialism. Sometimes there'll be guests, other times, it'll just be me. So let's get cracking. Right, we are back. We're alive. And it gives me great pleasure to introduce Justin Goldstein, who's from press regarding communications, a strategic Media Relations agency. I didn't want to get that wrong. I was reading off the screen. It just didn't work. Welcome.

Justin Goldstein

Thank you. Thank you very much for having me.

Peter Sumpton

On So today, what I want to cover is marketing and media relations. So before we dive into that topic, can you just give us a bit of a brat background to who you are and what you currently do for your clients?

Justin Goldstein

Sure. So, um, well, first, thank you again for having me. Um, so I've been in public relations for close to 10 years now. And I work on a very specific part of public relations called Media Relations, which essentially means building relationships with the press to get publicity for different types of clients. So I've worked with, you know, clients and travel, real estate, consumer b2b kind of runs the gamut. But the end goal being to get them coverage and then also working on developing podcasts much like one the one that you have, for different clients, whether it be individuals or organisations. Okay, that's cool. I think we'll come on to podcasts a little bit later on, because it'd be it'd be a bit crazy. Not to

Peter Sumpton

So that's that's what you do for people. It fascinates me the whole Media Relations thing. And it's certainly a topic that, that I'm not fully immersed in, by any way, shape or form. So looking to claim a lot of insight from this, this little chat we're going to have here. So first of all, like to start on a big opener. What's the hot topics within media relations? What, you know, what are you focusing on right now for some of your clients?

Justin Goldstein

Yeah, I mean, I think it really depends on each individual client, in terms of hot topics, because there's going to be hot topics for each specific space at the end, right. So there's going to be trending stories and retail real estate, whatever the case may be. It's not generically, trends, but I would say that, you know, the rule of thumb right now for anything you're pitching is that most of it should have some kind of tie into Coronavirus or the election of some kind. It's not a hard and fast rule, especially if you're dealing with more what are called trade publications or outlets that deal with issues primarily in a specific industry, but if you're looking to pitch you know, the today show or you know, the New York Times whatever the case may be, depending on the topic, you usually should have some kind of COVID ban but it doesn't necessarily have to be all about Coronavirus. You know, for example, I recently went out with a pitch and I was saying, you know, COVID is making times crazier. Here's an example of how and then kind of went on with the pitch past that. So it wasn't just about Coronavirus. But it is good to try to have that time.

Peter Sumpton

If If you didn't have say, a tie into the election that that's going on at the moment, or COVID. Is it a case that people wouldn't be necessarily interested in in that in that hook? Or would you stand out a little bit more because it's completely different from what everybody else is saying?

Justin Goldstein

Yeah, um, I don't think it's a requirement. I think that it's it's something that you know, reporters producers prefer but it's not necessarily required. So I wouldn't let that stop anybody from moving forward with something like that. But it is something that would help.

Peter Sumpton

Okay, that's cool. And just staying on the the presidential election. And this is by far getting into politics because that's just a no no for me in any way, shape or form. But in terms of leading with something to do with the election, have you got to be careful when when talking to anyone within the media about a political standpoint, I know in this country, particularly the newspapers, they're either one side or the other. Yeah, I can imagine for more private organisations, it's a little bit of a touchy subject, which way they go.

Justin Goldstein

I think it's more about just first understanding whether you actually want to be involved in that kind of conversation. You know, if you don't really especially if you work in a bigger company, if you don't want your company being involved in politics to start, which most don't, it's better not to even approach it because it can lead into a conversation that you don't really want to have. If you do I think it's just being smart about how you have that conversation to make sure that you're providing valuable insight. But they're also protecting yourself or your organisation at the same time so that they're not seeing anything that's going to be too controversial. Get them into trouble, whatever the case may be. Yeah. Okay. So suppose you've got to be picky on who is that that spokesperson for? That we, you definitely want to make sure that whoever you're putting in front of a reporter to talk about those kinds of things, they're really equipped to be able to do that.

Peter Sumpton

Okay, that's cool. So I know this might sound like a pretty basic question, but the reason that I like doing these lies or I intend to do more of them is to is to look at marketing holistically and then look at a specific area or topic or something within within the marketing field of which media relations is one. So where does it fit in with marketing in its entirety?

Justin Goldstein

I think it's, I think where its value is and its role is is being able to use those pieces of media coverage to meet marketing goals are, you know, to help that process so you know, if you're getting media coverage, you can use it as A tool for content development where you can pull quotes from different pieces of media coverage, do social posts or you know, create an article, LinkedIn article, for example. Or you could even use it for content for your newsletter. You know, there's different ways to weave it into marketing. You know, you're never ever going to be able to promise that media coverage is going to get you to achieve those goals, but it can certainly help. Okay, but that's cool. So I noticed that one thing that you promote is the print the online and the broadcast in terms of media relations and covering all those areas, as the different is the different strategies or tactics depending on what area you're looking at. Yeah, definitely. I mean, say that? Well, the basic that the basic rule of thumb that should go for any kind of reporter that you're pitching, no matter what medium is, you want to understand what their role is the kind of stories that they cover, right. But I would say that broadcast works a little bit differently where reporters can be thrown onto all Different types of beads, they could be working in the field, they could be working in the studio. So there's a little bit more flexibility in terms of what you can pitch them. But really understanding how they work is is the difference because you know prints online Typically they're going to be working on stories that are a bit more longer lead or down the road where broadcasts often is looking to fill a 24 seven beast every single day.

Peter Sumpton

Okay, so is broadcast more immediate you know that they want it now kick is somebody available now? Definitely. So does it work both ways then in terms of clients wanting that exposure obviously, but then obviously the the broadcast house and whoever you're talking to come in to you and saying Have you got X that can help us with that?

Justin Goldstein

Um, yes, definitely. I mean, there's there's been a bunch of times reporters who come to me and said, Hey, I remember working with you on this last story with you know, with this client is there any way you can help me with XYZ and try to find a source has happened a lot, and that's where that's where the relationship building really is important because if you're really Building solid relationships, reporters are going to come back to you so you know, sharing with them information that might be valuable just because paying them or a survey report that might help to inform their reporting. That's an example of how you build a relationship without asking for anything in return. So little things like that, that help but yes, it's definitely very possible for reporters to come back to you and ask you for more.

Justin Goldstein

Okay, that's, that's cool. Like it.

Justin Goldstein

Okay, so talk us through your your process in general for achieving success within Media Relations, then what what are you doing? Yeah. So I think that it goes back to what I was just saying, which is trying to provide value to reporters. And it's not just about saying, Hey, I have this client that can talk about this. It's more providing them with assets that again, might help to inform their reporting, you know, trying to find new trends that they might not be aware of with insight from my clients, trying to diversify what I do and try to provide a little bit more of a different approach. It's not so standard

Justin Goldstein

Okay, that's that's cool.

Justin Goldstein

So if you're, say, approaching a client or working with with a client, how much information do you do you need because we talked about immediacy before, but how much information do you need from that client to go to a reporter? And say, yeah, this is right for you. Is it a whole bunch? Do you know? Do you do a full back catalogue? Or Or how does that work? Yeah, it really depends. So for reporters that are talking about a story in real time that's happening, I think you do need comment and more information. But if you're pitching a reporter uncovering a longer lead trend story, then I don't think you do. I think you just need to be able to tell reporters sort of an understanding of what your source or client can comment on just so they have an overview, and that usually is good enough in that situation.

Peter Sumpton

Okay. So as the industry changed over time, that I mean, you know, you say 20 years ago, it would be hugely different to what it is now, but how we use different trends and perhaps reporting styles, all the communication channels that we now use, as opposed to say 10 years ago,

Justin Goldstein

I think more of what you're doing is going to be the future, I think got the chin of media is always changing. I think print online, you know, radio, TV, it's not going it'll never go anywhere. You know what I think as much as people say print is dying, and maybe true that yes, people aren't buying newspapers as much. But, you know, they morphed and evolved into having more of a digital component. That's where we saw the New York Times digital revenues shoot up tremendously, especially after Trump's election. So I think it's just it's always evolving and always changing. Good example. Another good example is radio where the concept of getting a radio feed is changed where it's not just on your am FM dial in your car anymore. Now it's iheart radio in your app, for example. It's always going to be changing but I think that the fundamental media is going to be there maybe just look a little bit different but then also you're going to see New introductions of what media means over the coming years where LinkedIn live broadcasters, like yourself, I think are going to be considered more members of the media at this point.

Peter Sumpton

Okay. But that's, that's interesting. I've worked with with numerous clients and within numerous businesses where it's always whatever the Hot Topic it is, or sorry, whatever the hot channel is at that time, or wherever our competition might be, we need to be on this channel. We need to get more exposure there. Do you get that at all from any of your clients, they see their competition doing this a lot, and they just say, we want to be the same as them.

Justin Goldstein

Yeah. Yes. I think it's more from the perspective of not necessarily wanting to be like, Well, I think it depends. If you're a small company, and you want to be like a big company, that's very normal. But when it comes to the media, it's more so saying, we want to be involved in the kind of stories that they're involved in, you know, like this reporter just covered a story and include a quote from our competitor and that's the kind of quote that we want to provide and be featured on. So I think it's more about just Tracking where their competition is going, where they're getting coverage and trying to emulate that. Okay, but let's go and obviously, if they go through self, it's bound to be bigger and better and, and far more exposure than than the competition.

Justin Goldstein

Right? Right. Yes.

Justin Goldstein

Absolutely. So, although the media landscape is hugely changed,

Peter Sumpton

I think a lot more people like you saying, like myself or anybody who has a lot more exposure or potentially has that exposure, immediacy, and the first thing that springs to my mind is Twitter. You know, it's, it's where I probably consume most of my news stories, or find things out that that I wouldn't generally find out. If somebody was looking for or to start a career within Media Relations, where would you tell them to start and I suppose the reason that I built that up That way is what people are looking at from the point of view is everybody's a media outlet now. But if they were looking to do what you do, where would you advise them to start? And what would that career path look like?

Justin Goldstein

So I always well, I should, I should start by saying that a lot of PR professionals have two choices. Typically they can go to an agency, or they can go in house to work for a company, let's say or nonprofit, whatever the case may be. I always recommend that when you're starting a career in PR, which will inevitably include Media Relations, that you should start at a PR agency. Because I think that it really helps to give you a diverse background not only in the function of media relations, but understanding how to work with clients and explain to them why a piece of media coverage is so valuable. And there's obviously so much more that you can learn just by working across different accounts working with so many different people. You know, typically when you're in house, you're working on maybe one topic with one or two people. You don't have as much interaction with different personalities don't learn as much so I that's my story. I mean, everybody has you. But um, you know, I think going to an agency, at least at the very beginning for a few years really gives you some good fundamental expertise that you can bring to an in house position. And really do very well there. Yeah. So in your background, did you have any educational background in terms of public relations, media Media Relations or anything like that? Yeah, no, I went to school for I went to college for four years and got my PR degree at a university here in New York, Hofstra University. And um, you know, also did my internships leading into my full time position as well. So definitely had an educational experience, but I don't think there's anything to replace the actual experience you get in a job. So I would say, you know, if it were me, I personally wouldn't recommend Unless, you know, maybe don't have a job and it gives you a leg up to get a job. I will would necessarily recommend getting a grad degree in PR. But I think focusing on in college is is not the worst idea in the world.

Peter Sumpton

Yeah. Because I had Dr. I on this live last week, and we've talked about marketing and education. And we've been around a few ideas and a few topics and saying that within marketing, that educational piece, for me personally, it's more a foundational block. And I 100% agree with you that there's nothing like that experience like that in the field and everything like that. Do you feel that within Media Relations or PR if you like? that education is more of a foundational piece than it is I'm ready for the real world?

Justin Goldstein

Can you kind of reframe that question? Yeah,

Peter Sumpton

sure. So I suppose what I'm, what I'm getting at is if you hadn't gone to university, do you feel you'd be as comfortable and as good at what you do? If you say, took that, those two to three years at university and replace them with just on the job learning.

Justin Goldstein

Yeah, absolutely. Um, because I think, you know, it goes back to what I was saying before, which is that it's all about the real world experience. So I think more than getting taught in a room, it's more about doing the internships and getting that first job. So yeah, I think you I mean, you do because everybody needs a college degree these days. Um, but I but I think if like, let's say, for example, you were a business major, or a marketing major and you wanted to learn about PR, you wouldn't necessarily need to be taught in PR classes, how did you learn tremendously more going through the ranks and so that's, that's really where I learned to do it. It wasn't, you know, I was grateful for my time at Hofstra and I, I valued the experience that I got, but I don't think that if I hadn't majored in PR I wouldn't be able to have figured it out. Go Through the jobs itself. Um, so, yeah, I think there's always that healthy blended mix to be had. You need those foundational skills and it really, really helps. But there's nothing like learning on the job. Yeah, so I'm completely with you on on that one. Yeah. Also just say that, you know, on the flip side of that, um, it is good to, you know, it is good to focus on that in your undergrad degree in your undergrad experience, focus on one concentration, this being PR, because then you make you make those connections. You never know where those relationships are going to go. Somebody might get a job before you and then be able to vet you out with their boss to hire you. So there's there's always a benefit to doing that. But of actually performing the role. I don't think that you necessarily need the degree.

Peter Sumpton

Yeah. Okay, cool. That makes sense. perfect sense. So just looking at, from your clients point of view or from your perspective, when you're looking at clients, if you were to go to Do a company or an organisation? Like, ideally? What would they be able to provide you straight off the bat, you know, in an ideal world to make your life much easier, what what elements are you looking for? So then you can do your job better?

Justin Goldstein

Yeah, I mean, I. So I think it's always, it's always about what the client can provide you. So I'm always trying to get out of them, you know, commentary for the media that's really going to set them apart. It's something that reporters haven't heard before. It's probably the hardest thing to do. But then after that, I'm really having the fundamentals down of, you know, reporter contact information, understanding what kind of stories are covering, those are the fundamentals of I think what you need to be successful with that.

Peter Sumpton

Okay, that's cool. Just a couple of comments. Going back to what we were saying before, about marketing qualifications. If somebody unfortunately the names come up, I don't the name hasn't. I don't know why but the saying that there are a fellow of the Chartered Institute of marketing without Single maxing degree and award winning as well. So Bravo on on that one. Absolutely. Yeah, you know, there's not one single path to to life really is the right way that kind of highlights. So if anyone else has got any questions or comments, please please dive in and let us know what I just want to change tact a little bit and what are the limiting beliefs that people have around media relations? You know, what are the the maybe not negativity but the the blockers that you always come up against?

Justin Goldstein

In terms of the PR field in general? Yeah, yeah. I would say a lot of people don't understand what it really means they think financieel which is not, which is not the case at all. Um, you know, there are instances where obviously you have to massage messaging to meet your client look good or make yourself look good, but that's not what relations is. There's a lot more complexity to it. So I would say that's the biggest misconception is that basically PR professionals are there too. A bad way to negative comments about whoever they're representing and make them look good.

Peter Sumpton

Yeah. Okay. All it is. And in terms of like, say, spokes people I know, it depends on the size of the organisation. But is there you know, are you looking for experts in a particular field, one spokesperson for a company? Or does it really depend on the topic you're talking about?

Justin Goldstein

really depends on the topic. You know, I think having multiple spokespeople is a good and bad thing. It's, it's a good thing because, you know, it helps to provide depth in terms of the kinds of sources that you can use. But it can be a downside, because then, you know, the client starts to feel the pressure of having to use all those folks, people. And you don't want to get into a situation where you're using them just to use them. So I would say, that's the, that's the negative, but I do think the pros outweigh the cons there. Okay. That's cool. And then taking it that step forward looking at looking at it from the media outlet. It's Are you being more targeted? For your clients in who you go to and say, you know, this is the exposure we want, or is it a broader picture nowadays, I think it's good to get an understanding from your clients of the kind of coverage that they want, because you may not be able to get the exact media publication that they want. But okay, as long as the messaging is on point, you can make a case for why a certain outlet would be a good fit. Hmm. Okay, that that makes that makes perfect sense. So, what I'd like to do is wrap this up with one of my favourite topics. And this goes back to kind of new media and things like that. And that's podcasting. Yeah,

Peter Sumpton

so I love that genre. I think there's so much white space in so many industries, that people should take advantage of that, particularly within within the marketing field, not marketing as a topic. I just mean as a strategy in marketing. So what's your take on on podcasting? First and foremost?

Justin Goldstein

I mean, it's the future. You know, I was reading a stat The other day that said that more people were listening to podcasts monthly then then going on social media. So I think that's a pretty telling statistic. I mean, the future I see it integrating with social as well, where I see more and more Instagram lives of people sort of including their stories, different, different snippets of their podcasts, recordings and being able to promote it there. So I think it's, I think it's going to just continue to grow. I mean, it's already gotten to a point where it's tremendously it's making even more of an impact than it was five years ago, three years ago, and it's going to continue to grow. But I do think what's going to happen is that it is going to start to become a bit flooded with content to the point that it's going to be really hard to find quality versus quantity. And I think a lot of voices will get drowned out if they're really not doing it the right way.

Peter Sumpton

And I suppose it's like, it's like any form of comms when big players start to come In do they get a lot more exposure? And then the smaller podcast might like you say, die away. But it's some kind of stat that a podcast most podcasts don't get after seven episodes, that's when people stop, which is a bit crazy, you know? Yeah, seven times, you're not actually an expert at it in any way, shape or form?

Justin Goldstein

Well, I think I think also the problem with that is, you know, a lot of people don't really understand the value of podcasts, I think beyond just downloads, right? So, you know, and this kind of goes to my point, which is that it's going to be very hard moving forward to be able to, to be the next Joe Rogan right to have millions of, you know, get half, half a million, whatever his contract was half a billion, whatever it is, from Spotify, you know, become the number one pot, it's just hard. And so you have to understand the other elements of value that it brings, which, for example, would be, you know, being able to use the podcast like we were talking about before, as a content marketing tool. You know, people able to use it as a guest booking tool to bring on new business prospects. So there's other ways to showcase the value. It's not just downloads and I think if people understand that they'll probably invest more time into it because like you said, If after seven episodes, they're not seeing a million downloads, they might be like, why am I wasting my time, but it really takes time to grow the value out of it?

Peter Sumpton

Yeah, absolutely. Just on that point. Again, I don't know this this person's name so frustrating, but that they've run their own agency for 10 years and they say the biggest frustration with potential clients is that they don't understand marketing in the slightest. Yeah, yeah, I can I can kind of preach for that coming from a building and construction background. Do you find that when you're talking to people you have people on your side and then other people in the in the company that that take a little bit more of a sell?

Justin Goldstein

Yeah, definitely. I think it depends on the client because I think there's two types of contacts. You could have one that really wants to have a partner and the other one that's just doing it because they have to. And typically, the ones that are doing it because they have to don't want you there, so they're not going to necessarily fight for you. But I've definitely worked with client contacts that have been on our side understood our frustrations really tried to help so I think it just depends, but there's definitely a mix.

Peter Sumpton

Okay, well, I can say for sure, hands down that if you came into, if I was in an organisation you came in, you convince me to be the conversations we've had. Yeah, you could absolutely 100% convinced me. So on that, just to wrap things up. First, first thing. We've got the mystery man. Tony carrucha, thank you very much for joining us. And he says good discussion guys, which is always nice to get more discussion from Justin's point of view than me. He's just a rambling mess most of the time. So to just wrap up, Justin. If people want to find out What you do in a little bit more detail, find out more about yourself or your company. Where are you pointing them? Where should they go?

Justin Goldstein

Yeah, so you can visit my website at www dot press record.co Thank you for flashing it. So that's where, and also you can find me on LinkedIn. I believe the hyperlink is LinkedIn comm slash Goldstein, Justin Ayana, Goldstein. So you can find me there and yeah, if anyone's interested in you know, starting a media relations programme and wants to learn more, I'd love to be able to chat with you. Yeah, fantastic. And Justin's LinkedIn profile should be LinkedIn in the in the post that attributes to this live. So if you want to contact Justin do that or go to the website that's on the screen. Please do because he's a top bloke. He knows everything about media relations, and he should be everyone's go to guy. So just in final thing for me, thank you so so much. Thank you so so much for listening and staying with me till the end, not many people do on podcasts. If you want to chat a bit more marketing, feel free to hit me up on LinkedIn. email me at Peter Sumpton at marketing study lab coat at UK or join our Facebook group growing and thriving. Just search for marketing study lab on Facebook. Happy marketing

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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