Talking Depression, and Psychedelics with Mick Bland

Man Made: Good Guys Who Drink and Cuss a Little

In this episode of Man Made with Jeff Stucke, Jeff sits down with Mick Bland to discuss their experiences with psychedelics, particularly ayahuasca and psilocybin.

Mick Bland has a background in chemical engineering and explains the chemical mechanisms of how psychedelics work in the brain.

Don't just run out there and start trying stuff. Have a proper "container" or setting when using psychedelics for therapeutic purposes.

They share their personal experiences with ayahuasca ceremonies in Peru and how these experiences have transformed their lives and perspectives. The discussion also touches on the stigma surrounding psychedelics and the potential benefits they offer for mental health and personal growth.

They'll discuss their experiences in Peru in more detail in a future podcast, so stay tuned.

Here's an automatic transcript for what it's worth:

Jeff Stucke

Mick Bland. How you doing, bud? You buddy, how are you, man? Doing? Great. How you doing, man? I'm doing pretty good, you know. Working for a living. But other than that, things are going pretty well. Exceedingly excited about our discussion today.

Mick Bland

You and I both.

Jeff Stucke

Yeah. For me, one of the reasons and this may be like. This is not hyperbole. Maybe the most exciting podcast I've ever done for a couple of different reasons. 1. Having been a licensed therapist that primarily works with men now for, you know, around 25 years. Knowing intuitively, always knowing OK something's off like there are aspects. Of therapeutic intervention, psychiatric and interventions that are right. But there's something that is not right and. But then now having my own personal experiences with psychedelics, which is going to be the subject of our discussion today. You and I intertwined experience with psychedelics, which is a whole nother ******* story, which we'll get to at a later.

Mick Bland

Looking forward to that one too.

Jeff Stucke

Time. Your personal experience and benefits from the psychedelics, but then the creme de la creme is your vast understanding from your professional background. Being a chemical engineer of how these things actually work. So all of those things are what make me incredibly excited about our conversation today.

Mick Bland

You and I both cause it's really one thing I found, and we'll get my back in a little more detail, but do have a background in chemical engineering and never thought I'd be the kind of guy that did psychedelics, just wasn't into that stuff at all. And when I started doing more research, this stuff I had read a lot of the people the quote UN quote experts and they portrayed themselves to the Expo. They're just using big words and they're not lying, you know, they're repeating what they've heard as far as they know, it's correct. But the problem is there's a lot of incorrect information out there and a lot of people just don't have the background in science to really understand the words that they're saying and that someone has to have a degree. But let's be honest, some of the Kemp Bachelors of Chemical Engineering. Probably gonna know that probably they're definitely know a lot more about chemistry than I don't know. ******* Heather. Eagle Feather, who has a half a gram of mushrooms or something and now she's spiritually enlightened and tries to educate the world on how the world works. And that's just like her than not lying and more power to him for wanting to help people. The world needs more people who do want to help people. But you know that help needs to come from a place of expertise that you don't really get unless you studied this stuff for years. And once you have that understanding of chemistry itself, then reading, you know, the more technical journals about the mechanisms of action, those are going to make a lot more sense and a lot easier to explain than someone who frankly hadn't put their time in.

Jeff Stucke

Well, and therapists are kind of like that, too. I can always tell. You know, cause like when therapists hang out together. Like we we talk therapy and that is I ******* like. It's like when you when you can't take the concepts, understand them enough to be able to break them down and then explain them in a way that's true to who you are as a person. That's always a red flag for me as a therapist. That's why I hate.

Mick Bland

But that's a fun time.

Jeff Stucke

And going to conventions and **** because we all just therapy, therapy, therapy there and it's like what are what are we even talking about? Like we're so so I can totally appreciate people that have the experience but don't have the understanding.

Mick Bland

Yep.

Jeff Stucke

So I'm going to just kind of step out of your way and have you kind of wow us with your understanding of the psychedelics you and I are my experience more a little more heavily into psilocybin, understand the pharmacology of psilocybin a little better. But then Ayahuasca, which is to me. So much more, having had the benefit of of doing ayahuasca ceremonies, and I'm I'm almost a year out from the ceremonies that we did together and I'm still having. Awareness and benefits from that. So having said to that, having said that, tell us about, tell us about the the psychedelics.

Mick Bland

OK, a little background myself can do the background bachelor's degree in chemical engineering and worked as a process engineer for three. I'm right out of college and from there went in more HVAC design. Most of my career was spent in IT at a fairly high level, which now called the cloud lucky out at the base floor was just called virtualization. So really my whole life has been wrapped around. More technical stuff sciency stuff. You kind of get the idea here. And never thought of myself as someone who is certainly not a psychonaut even to this day, I don't consider myself someone who I don't do psychedelics for fun up until when a strength I washed a few years ago. My only experience with psychedelics, and I guess technically I did a half a hit of acid when I was a freshman in college. I was dumb ship 19 year old, doing half hit of acid on Halloween. Didn't do all that much. Wasn't particularly spiritually enlightening, and frankly regretted doing it because we've all heard the stories. Ohh man, psychedelics, those things will melt your brain. That's why they're outlawed. And I bought into that nonsense for a few decades and didn't even realize it until I drank iowaska. But. Then ******** depressed my entire life. Like when you just grow up very traumatic household and probably just get it from my parents, you know, genetically disposed to depression. I just didn't know any other way to think. I didn't understand that most people just didn't look at the world to the way I looked at it. And so I called through a pair of **** colored lenses. It's just.

Speaker

Mick Bland

And at first iwasko ceremony, the light went off. Like, holy ****, I what the hell was I even think in my entire life? Maybe there's something to this. I'm not gonna get too far down the path. I don't be a buzzkill, but I'll be honest, I went down to prove first time in 2018. I went down there to. Myself, I just thought, hey, while I'm down there, I can drink this iowaska stuff I kept hearing about and 1st actually read of ayawaska more than 20 years ago. It was just an immense fitness magazine and just a real article in passing. They had mentioned that, hey, there's this brew down in South America called Ayawaska. People are going down there that helps them find their meaning to life. That helps cure depression, just kind of laughed it off, didn't think much of it, but for some reason that we're just.

Jeff Stucke

For people to really understand, it's like when you had a very deep. Clinical depression. That have been very resistant to intervention, but you weren't like no one would have known that.

Mick Bland

Yeah, it's like.

Jeff Stucke

At first glance, I mean, you're a very successful individual. You know, alpha male kind of guy that people would look at and say, well, that guy's got the world by the balls. But on the backside of that, you've been battling this dark, clinically resistant depression for a very long time.

Mick Bland

Yeah, I didn't have been to a couple of therapists as a kid. Even tried a couple as adults, and they just didn't do anything for me, so I just laughed it off. I just thought, hey, this is how people are supposed to think, and you hit the nail on the head from looking at me from the outside in and start out as a chemical engineer for three M from there went into commercial HVAC sales there. You're working off Commission. And you know you're selling systems that are 7-8 sometimes, you know, 9 figures. Well, nine figures of that. But, you know, 7-8 figure systems, you're working. Commission I was making mad cash. People are thinking, man, this guy's got his **** together and literally every night I was going home and drinking a 12 pack more of beer and trying to figure out a way not to put a gun in my mouth and I just thought that's the way people lived. I thought that's the price you paid to be successful. So one thing I want to say, and I'm sure you're going to agree with me on this. You don't have to live that way. And just because your life is really good to other people, well, are you happy? Do you have any kind of purpose in life? You know, if you wanna kill yourself through it and I don't go too far down that suicide path and being kind of a bug. Skill, but just let people know. Man. I'm speaking from experience here. I know what it's like to be in that dark, dark hole of depression. And you tried other methods. You've talked to psychiatrist. You've done everything people tell you to do, and that cloud just ain't lift it. And even if you don't know, you're depressed, maybe you've grown up that whole way. If you just think, man, why are these people so happy? All the time. There is hope out there, there is hope and for me, that was psychedelics and you know, not the only one to discover this. Back in 2018, when I first drank ayahuasca, that's when they were first starting to appear a little more on the public radar. I wouldn't say they're not as popular as they are now, but. At, you know, people started hearing about a waska. I started hearing about in some different podcasts, and now, luckily, that tides continues to keep moving. And I'm really excited to see where we are just as a, as a society, to see just how much these things are going to open up the world to people who may otherwise, you know, other medications haven't actually worked and never went on.

Jeff Stucke

That's interesting because it is like there are such. Profoundly negative connotations with the psychedelics. I mean, they are, like you said, it's like the the old War on drugs and the egg burning in the skillet. And and it's like. In fact, that is absolutely antithetical to how the psychedelics work. I mean, that's absolutely, and we know how they work, whereas. Most of the pharmacological interventions, the psychotropics it's like, eh, I mean, like Viagra was originally released as a blood pressure medication. It didn't do anything for blood pressure, but all the guys were like, hey, I need more of that ****. They want to give it back. Intervention for yeah, it's like and it's like. When when you open, when you begin to understand. Ayahuasca and and from a chemical composition, but also just. The the How they discovered ayahuasca it it just is absolutely incredible. And yet we still have mostly stigmatized these things as people that go just trip balls and just want to have fun and escape reality and it's like. Nope, that's not what this stuff is.

Mick Bland

Not at all, particularly not in the context that we're talking about it. And they have someone to go trip balls. You know, I don't know. Eats mushrooms go to a rock concert. I'm not telling you not to. Sometimes that's all the medicine that you need. But that's not what we're discussing here. As I said, I'm not a psycho. Not by any stretch imagination. One of the key things to all psychedelics. Needs a container around that experience, meaning you just if you want to go trip balls, that's great. You really are playing with fire, but we're not talking about just going into Iran. Yeah, actually.

Jeff Stucke

That's like playing with fire, right? Cause like my my if if I would have had. Particularly, my third ayahuasca ceremony. If I would have had that on my. Own. Like. It it and and and I do think it's very important that we punctuate again, you and I are talking about this as therapeutic intervention, whether it be for me it was kind of like.

Mick Bland

Absolutely.

Jeff Stucke

Have I have I discovered everything there is to discover about life, because this kind of is boring if it is. You know, so it was just kind of this personal journey of, OK, I'm going to go to the deep end of the pool of self discovery, which was. Transformationally profound As for you, it's like. I've tried everything else for this major resistant depression that I have been fighting and you find it. It it we ultimately end at the same point but but our points of entry on that path were very different points of entry.

Mick Bland

Absolutely. And that's no matter where you are, whether you you don't have to wait to get to the point I was at where you're ready to kill yourself. That's what I really want to emphasize. And I'm trying to back me up on this. And even if it just feels there's something missing in your life, you know, maybe like yourself, you got a great job. You got a great family. And for some reason, you just have that nagging feeling in the back of your head. Like, is this it? Like is is there is this.

Jeff Stucke

That's exactly right.

Mick Bland

All there is to life.

Jeff Stucke

Right.

Mick Bland

And that that's where psychedelics can come into play. They really are, you know, a miracle drug. I call them miracle medicine. And it's. I thought of it almost kind of annoying. People talk about ayahuasca, the medicine. Well, medicine is that which will lead suffering, and by definition, that's why people call ayawaska the medicine. That's that's not hyperbole.

Jeff Stucke

Really. And we've been in with this more, but this is truly medicine because there's no side effect profile.

Mick Bland

Exactly.

Jeff Stucke

It's not gonna stop working like you're not gonna have to take another medication to mitigate that medication. If we're going to be true to the word, this is medication.

Mick Bland

Absolutely. And it's a cure. I mean, that's the the SSRI medications and they work for some people that's great. But if you look at the history of those things, they were originally released with the idea for people, frankly, were who are at where I was at, where you're on the ledge, you're looking for a reason to not kill yourself. Your Bart were to start take. In action and then at that point it's, hey, go on these Sri medications that'll just shut down those emotions. That'll get them off the ledge and into therapy, and then they can start helping them. But then the problem is the pharmaceutical companies, they looked at this long term. They realized, hey, if we can get these people on this medication, quote UN quote, I should say this drug for life. And there's a lot of money to be made, so they realize that they start running enough trials. Eventually, they're gonna find one where it works better than the placebo. And when that happened, that opened the door. And now it's like, hey, you're feeling a little bit down. Go on these SSRI medications. Oh, by the way, you said, hey, **** **** might start working. I mean, there are. There's a real chance of permanent sexual side effects. It just isn't talked about. It kind of falls in the background of this adds to the show a guy, I don't know, riding a bicycle, flying a kite. Then that little voice comes in. Oh, by the way, these have shown here so.

Speaker

Right.

Mick Bland

Permanent sexual side effects because blah blah and it just your brain has talked to dismiss it and it's like, dude, that's like a huge red flag. So even assuming you don't have those permanent sexual side effects, once you're on these thing. Things most people I know personally going on SSRI medications at first they think, hey, this is great. It does lift that cloud. But the problem is, over time it just shuts down all your emotions. So not only you're not feeling depressed, but you're not feeling any joy. You're not feeling any happiness and you know, makes it easy. You can just keep waking up each.

Jeff Stucke

The psychedelics, the psychedelics are that is the exact opposite of that. It makes everything more vivid. It makes everything more just experiential. I mean it just it is a it is a baptism into living. And it OK so, so, so talk us through just kind of you want to do ayahuasca first, let's explain to us how ayahuasca affects the.

Mick Bland

Yeah, that's a great way to put it. Brain little bit of history by ayahuasca and this just kind of get people on the same page. First written record of it I'm aware of is back in the. Jesuit priests back in the 17th century, they had writings of the they called them witch doctors. Brewing up this brew with vines and leaves, and that appeared in their writings. And of course, they burned all the history because they thought that that was satanic. So they, you know, literally burned all the the. Of those original shamans that they had worked with, and even as far as how long these things have been in use, back in 2019, shamanic pouch was found in the Libya and that actually contained traces of ayahuasca. We'll get into how we know it was ayawaska, but so they know they've been in use for at least a millennia, and who knows how many millennia. Before that, so these things have been established, they've been a part of, I don't know, human nature, for lack of a better description for literally thousands of years and then going back a bit more recently back in the 40s, doctor Richard Schultes, he's a really known as the father of Ethnobotany just. Who studied botany and how it ties into cultures? He had a written record of Iowaska back in the early 1940s and then was until 1984 Doctor Dennis McKenna and some others think it was the towers and Abbot were the names, but they published confirming their real mechanism of ayahuasca and how it actually works. So just to even get a bit deeper into the chemistry itself. Iwas refers to two different things. One refers to the brew itself, and so the brew. When you make ayahuasca, there's a lot of different additives you can add, but the two main components is going to be 1, the ayahuasca. Divine. So if people get confused, Ayahuasca is a vine itself, the Linnaean name being banisteriopsis copy. So that's the vine. And then they mix that vine with the leaves of the chacruna Bush. And that's a psychiatry of iritis. That's again the Linnaean name of the chacruna Bush. And the leaves of that chacruna Bush. They contain and anti methyl triptan. Which I'll just call DM. Teeth, so DMT is known as one of the more potent psychedelics you can possibly take, but it's not morally active on its own if you just take the leaves at the sacrum Bush itself, you make a tea out of that. Or if you just take a pill containing DMT, you're not going to feel anything, because that's going to be broken down on your gut because your gut has what are called monoamine oxidase. They're enzymes that actually breakdown aiming groups aiming group like ammonia. That's just a molecule containing nitrogen, a specific type of nitrogen with different atoms attached to it. Those are generically called aiming groups, and then your gut. That actually has monoamine oxidase enzymes in it to break those down. And the reason for that is because neurotransmitters, serotonin being the prime example, those actually do have aiming groups attached to them. So just to make sure, we kind of evolved, if you eat different plants, if we didn't have those monoamine oxidase enzymes in our gut, it wouldn't be possible to eat most of vegetation, it would be fatal or just have who knows, whatever. Consequences would happen, so it does, or our gut does have those monoamine oxidase enzymes to break those molecules down. And then for example like DMT stands for Dimethyltryptamine, some may be heard of the five HT2A. That's actually I got you. I keep forgetting them as a chemical engineer. So appreciate keeping online like I say, kind of being a nerd sometimes I get off track here.

Jeff Stucke

Not your. No, keep going. But just like I appreciate you thinking that any of us have heard like ohh yeah, well, I didn't know what you were talking about until you said fifth degree mono. How to ******* whatever.

Mick Bland

I got you. There. But anyway, so maybe like the Saratoga that actually is most people might have heard of that serotonin, that's a neurotransmitter. And that actually binds as well to the five HT2AH T stands for hydroxytryptophan, so it's no accident that the DMTH, then some tryptamine very, very similar molecule in shape to this serotonin neuron transmit. So when you actually have the DMT in your gut, once it gets in your bloodstream and needs to. Make sure it's not broken down before it can get into your bloodstream. Then that does bind to the same receptors in your brain that serotonin binds to, and that's what makes it psychoactive. So as I said before in your gut you have monoamine oxidase enzymes and that will break those tryptamines down. So that's where the ayahuasca vine component comes into play. So again, the banisteriopsis copy, the ayawaska Bine itself, that has molecules or shape is called beta carbolines. But what's significant about those you may hear those referred to as? MAOI and that stands for monoamine oxidase inhibitor and that's exactly what it sounds like those are. Inhibitors and those chemically react with the monoamine oxidase enzymes in your gut, and it renders those inactive and that's what allows the DMT present in the chacruna leaves to pass through your gut be absorbed into your bloodstream and then get into your brain and bind to those five THT 2A. The same receptor that the serotonin molecules bind to, and that's what allows it to remain psychoactive once it gets into your gut. Otherwise, again, it would be broken down.

Jeff Stucke

Fascinating about that remote to me. Anyway. That is so profoundly fascinating about that. Is that is a highly specific chemical reaction. I mean, what are the probabilities that shamans discover that 1000 years ago that? Right. They have to do something there. There has to be an MAOI inhibitor. Like they don't even know it, just like.

Mick Bland

It's hard to wrap your head around.

Jeff Stucke

People process is so sophisticated, and yet thousands of years old.

Mick Bland

Exactly. And as you know, if the you know the anthropologist, that's almost kind of blown off. They're already ask him. Well, how did you find out about this stuff? How did you know about this? And as you know, what those says, hey, the plants told us the trees told us and that would just completely dismissed like, OK, whatever. But you start thinking about it like, who know, we don't even know how many species of plants are in the Amazon 10,000 at least. More than that, what's the probability that they're gonna figure out multiple tribes across the whole? They're going to figure out, hey, if you mix this vine with these particular leaves, then you get this psychoactive brew that opens up the portal to the universe. And that may sound like a bit of a stretch. But as Jeff can back me up until you've experienced ayahuasca.

Jeff Stucke

There's no stretch and it's like.

Mick Bland

That's exactly what the **** it does. It's crazy.

Jeff Stucke

How are people not more interested in this? I mean, it's just like. And that goes back to. 1. I think I think what what you said about the Jesuits, you know, in the 1700s thinking of this as witchcraft and demonic and those kinds of things. And then our in our more modern area era is how we have so. We've we've made the psychedelics so taboo. When? Just like you described, we know chemically how this worked. Shamans of thousands of years ago didn't. And again, the statistical probabilities of shamans finding these two plants in the Amazon with an untold number of species of plant. Chance to get this magical result is like, why aren't we talking about that more?

Mick Bland

It's really even when LSD was first synthesized back in the 50s by Albert Hoffman, that opened up the doors to psychiatry, there was, hey, these things really could be a miracle drug. People may or may have heard of Bill Davis. You know, Bill, they call him from A and products went going to Alcoholics Anonymous meeting 20 plus years ago before I quit drinking and. I haven't drank in 20 years. It's found a what didn't fit for me but original. Really. LSD experience that was going to be one of the tenants of AA that could actually open up the door to spirits enlightenment that could make people be aware. Hey, there is a higher purpose to life and psychiatrists. We're very, very excited about this. And it wasn't until Richard Nixon in 1970 until they scheduled the psychedelics, meaning they made those illegal for even. You know therapeutic use very, very difficult even have any clinical trials on it. They just wiped them out across the board and that ended all research. And not only did it end all research. Search that continued that same stigma that the judges priests hads of it, you know, they may have thought they were satanic, but they're gonna melt your brain. And it's taken decades to overcome that stigma. And just, you know, thank goodness that that's starting to happen, people, but it's still out there. But people are slowly but surely starting to overcome that stigma.

Jeff Stucke

And alcohol and tobacco. Tobacco as it is processed in the United States, is still legal.

Mick Bland

It's just it's the mind boggles. I've quit drinking December 30th, 2003. I really wouldn't be here if I had kept drinking. And it's I'll call it as a poison. And I people would have a couple of drinks. It's. Yeah, knock yourself out, but.

Speaker

Poison.

Jeff Stucke

Yeah, I'm not judging either. It's like it's like if you want to drink. Drink. I I can't. I don't have. I can't really tolerate it anymore. It just the way that it affects my mind. You know, the fact that it is a systemic depressant, and I experience that, I mean, and I like drinking. I, you know, woo. But I just.

Mick Bland

Excuse me.

Jeff Stucke

It's like. And and maybe some of that is just post ayahuasca and the clarity and just the mental growth that has gone along with that. But it's like when you when you get past the stigmas of these things. And again, neither one of us are. Or advocating anyone do any illegal activity or anything that that that's not the point of our discussion at all. The point of our discussion is that there is such a stigma about these things. And who knows what's going to happen with the government legalization and those kinds of things. Obviously Big Pharma is going to try to grab a hold of it before any of the rest of us can have any real experiences with it. But it is. It is the key to the unlocking the universe.

Mick Bland

Absolutely. And it's just really, it's hard. Have you discussed with even with alcohol you talked with, is it Doctor Peter Addy? It? I keep mispronouncing his name. But.

Jeff Stucke

Yeah, I see it to you. I don't know either.

Mick Bland

Yeah, but still only time. We just.

Jeff Stucke

Yeah, he's he's a ******* God. But yeah, we. Don't want this one down.

Mick Bland

He is. He's. Yeah, absolutely. But he's, you know, a medical doctor specialized in longevity and health. And I've heard interviews with people ask him, well, what is the safe amount of alcohol that you can drink without having negative consequences? And he's like, zero. It is a poison. You know, people have a couple of glasses of red wine not going to make you drop dead, but it's not going to do you any good. There really is. No. Productive or safe amount of alcohol that you can drink, and yet that's celebrated. You know, that's hey, you have a couple of beers with your friends. You're not a real man if you don't. And hopefully that's gonna continue to change over time as. More people start getting experience using these psychedelics and the proper setting.

Jeff Stucke

And that and then, and let's be clear, you and I are making that. Point not because. I mean, again, I'm, you know, alcohol has never. In it, it's never impairment is the clinical, you know criterion that we use for substance abuse. Does it impair impair your level of function? I've never had any level of impairment. You know, I've never been too drunk to go to work or cost me any relationships or have any legal problems, anything like that. I'm talking about maximizing quality of life from a if you want to drink, go ahead and drink. But. If. You want if you want the maximum human experience. I just it can't coexist with the consumption of alcohol because it's a *******. Poison.

Mick Bland

Exactly. I'm. I'm at the point now. Again, not judging anyone. But you know, if people are judged, say, drink, that's one thing having a couple glasses of wine, couple of glasses of Scotch. But if someone's a ******** drinker, even if they're not, we would call it drunk. But if they just, hey, if they're like their beer, they like their booze. Hey, that's great, man. I hope you have a wonderful time. I just really don't want to hang out with that. I just. Not only do I not want to be around alcohol, I just don't really like association with the kind of people that enjoy it to like to go out and get *********. As like, hey, Matt, that's what's gonna do great. But it it just it, it doesn't. It's not people I want to be around. I'll leave.

Speaker

With that.

Jeff Stucke

No, I yeah. And again, it's not a, it's not a condemnation. It's not a judgment, it's not. It's certainly not a moral position, but I do think it would be a disservice. If if we didn't just punctuate 1. Just the reality of the situation, that it is a poison and then to it's antithetical to the experience of the psychedelics.

Mick Bland

Absolutely.

Jeff Stucke

Yeah. So more to say about Ayahuasca. Tell me, go back, tell like, because you've told me this before. I can't. The guy. I'm escape. I'm. I'm the guys names. I even ******* went to IU and I'm the guys name that discovered the double Helix in genetics.

Mick Bland

Oh, Watson and Crick. Yeah, there are two of them, Watson and Crick. Yet even crickets. Some say it's an urban legend. Who knows if it's true? If not, it's a good story. But a lot of people who just based on conversations they had with Crick. And he is getting one of the Co founders who discovered the double Helix of DNA that he was under the influence of LSD when that revelation.

Speaker

Well, that's.

Mick Bland

Thing to them. So they really do open up your mind to new possibilities and whether or not that's an urban legend or not. There's a doctor, Bruce Damer. He's just a scientist. I'm a huge fan of, if you're not familiar with him, you can Google his name and you want to talk about a legit scientist literally beyond reproach. I mean, he was one of the founding programmers. Who were the graphical user interfaces he was in at the ground floor of just developing? I'll just say it, you know, the graphic user interface. He says then he went on to now. He's currently works for NASA. He designs spacecraft. You may have heard different stories about the theories about, say, if an asteroid is coming into Earth. Well, they can launch a spacecraft to intercept it, put a sphere around it. Either use that to push that asteroid off course so it doesn't impact the Earth or what. He's getting at is how you can. Use those spheres around those asteroids and then mine them for content. So we're not here to talk about space travel, but I'm just talking about Doctor Bruce Damer again, as far as his scientific credentials, literally a rocket science rocket scientist, more or less beyond reproach. And he was a little under the weather or under the radar. He wouldn't talk directly about it. But a couple of years ago at the SPD 55 and that's the Ethnopharmacology Cal search for psychoactive drugs. And that's a Carmen's been going on for more than 50 years now. But he did a presentation just called it's high time for science. And he just did a fascinating presentation to listen to. He's done other similar presentations, but he comes out and says as we're stressing with the proper container around it, these psychedelics could unlock potential in the human brain. They can just improve the human condition in a way that other medications, other substances, are just simply not able to do so. So it's just not some guy, you know, a chemical engineer talking about it. There's untold number to just mainstream scientist and doctor Dennis McKenna. He's the one who first confirmed the mechanism of action about Alaska, meaning it's the MAOI's in the ayahuasca vine. And just to be specific, there's. Other ones that the big three are harming harmaline and tetrahydro harmony and those are those 3 beta carbine beta carbolines and those are psychoactive on their own. But those are those 3 molecules that function as the MAOI's, the monoamine oxidase inhibitors. And that's what allows the DMT to remain orally. Active in your gut. Allow it to pass into your bloodstream and then bind to those serotonin receptors in your brain. And is, you know, PhD in biology and ethyl bodies. So there's really, really hard, ******** scientists that back this up. And it's been known for around, you know, 40-50 years, the mechanism of action. And that's why I just say. That's. Really, we're getting to the point now. It's gotten beyond just science. It's time to move on to engineering. So, like, do psycho or do psychedelics relieve depression? Do they enable neuroplasticity in the brain? Yes, they do. It's time to start focusing on how can we most effectively use these? What's the most? Effective set setting before, during and most significantly after this ceremony that we can use to maximize the therapeutic potential of these Subs. So that's what's just really, really critical and we're about to talk about psilocin and psilocybin. But regardless of psychedelics, less than a year ago, paper was published by Doctor Gould Dolan. He's a neurobiologist originally worked at the John Hopkins School of Medicine School of Psychedelic Science. Recently, she moved her laboratory to UC Berkeley, and their School of Psychedelic Beta. And she came out with the paper she discovered from experiment with mice. And she found that across the board, different psychedelics, whether we're talking about ketamine, whether we're talking about LSD, whether we're talking about psilocin and psilocybin, whether we're talking about Ibogaine, the main way that they work is they do open up what they're called critical learning periods in your brain. Now our critical learning period, we experience those as children. Everyone knows as kids, it's very, very easy to learn languages and you could do that really before you can even remember to just kind of have. Kids are much easier to learn. Musical instruments even occur in adolescence where you're very, very susceptible to peer pressure because you really want to bond with your peers. So there's different periods in your brain which are called critical learning periods, and they can just open up that window where you're extremely perceptive to your surroundings and your brain is very, very neuroplastic. And it's able to rewire itself and form new connections at the synaptic level that it isn't able to outside of those critical learning period windows. And that's really what we're finding. How psyched. It's work. So not only during the ceremony itself, but for the week, sometimes up to a month afterwards, it does open your brain to that critical learning period window. So that's why integration is so significant. Integration in the steps you take after the ceremony ends. That's what's so crucial to that container around the psychedelic process. Just to make sure you get the most out of that then. So they've discovered you. That's how they work. Yes, they do. Open up those critical learning period windows in our brain. So now it's time to move a little bit past that and start focusing on how can we make the most use out of that critical learning period that window opens up after the ceremony ends.

Jeff Stucke

Well, and why that? I mean again to emphasize. The the fact that we have mechanisms that will open up critical learning windows, it's like. I mean, you have you think about, OK? We are born into infancy. And then by age 3. You know, we're starting to master. Mostly master gross motor skill. We're ambulant we're walking around some development of, you know, fine motor skill. We're coloring things like that. Speech acquisition, I mean, which is the developmentally the single most significant? Critical learning window and then it's like for her to discover that this window can be reopened is like, wait, what like this is not like a small thing. This is like a.

Mick Bland

It's.

Jeff Stucke

Are you serious?

Mick Bland

It's just to. Give you some context, like when stroke victims after they're, you know after the stroke is over, that does open up a critical learning period in your brain as well, called a period called a window. Same idea. That that critical learning period that allows the brain to be wired itself so with proper therapy they can recover some of those abilities that were lost. Maybe whatever portions of their brain that were damaged due to that stroke when the brain is in that critical learning period, it can. The brain can rewire itself and all the different portions of the brain to take over for those portions of the brain. They were damaged by the stroke. How your brain does do that naturally, but naturally, that critical learning period only opens up for about two months after the stroke ends, and so stroke victims they can work with therapists, they can do what they can to recover from the motor skills say that were lost, maybe recovered their ability to speak at that part of the brain was damaged. But the problem is, once that critical learning. Your window closed. It's like, well, that's about as much as you're gonna recover. So she's continuing research with the idea. If she can use psychedelics to open up that critical learning period for, say, stroke victims that can extend that two-month window and allow them to continue to work with them. To help recover that capacity that was lost by whatever part of the brain that was damaged by the stroke, and that even goes on to.

Jeff Stucke

Just thinking about the implications of for the rest of us that haven't had a stroke and that we have an opportunity to open the critical learning window and. You know not to get too carried away with it, but the implications for humanity, like the fact that we have the capacity which which gives more credence right to the LSD derivative to the discovery of of the double Helix, it's like. OK, maybe.

Speaker

It's.

Jeff Stucke

Urban legend, but maybe not because the science certainly supports the fact that it's not. What are the overall implications to humanity at such, especially at such a critical time in human existence, where it seems like we we are one decision away from.

Mick Bland

Yeah.

Jeff Stucke

Launching us into oblivion.

Mick Bland

It's it's really hard if it's just so exciting to think where this could actually lead and you say whether it's an urban legend or not, bearing the double DNA double Helix, just referring into the work of Doctor Bruce Damer, there's a lot of mainstream scientists. He went down to Pruitt, the group of molecular biologists, and they drank ayahuasca with the intention of how can we use this to? Unlock new understanding of the way cells work and the results were extraordinarily positive. So and to say at this point that science has been established. Yes, when they're in the proper setting setting, I should probably qualify this a little. But there are people who really maybe shouldn't do psychedelics at all if they're very heavily schizophrenic. If they have, you know, certain personality disorders, you know, they're not for everyone, neither you are medical doctors. So hey, you want to double check with your doctor, but unless you're an outlier, there's it's just not, like, taking antidepressants, where there's a very, very real chance if you're going to have. Permanent side effects, whether they be sexual or otherwise, these psychedelics are extraordinarily safe, particularly when done in the proper setting setting. So it's just it's, yeah, it's just it's just.

Jeff Stucke

In the province.

Speaker

Of yeah.

Jeff Stucke

Yeah. Anything that you and I are discussing, if somebody goes off. And does it in an improper setting like. That's not what we're talking about. We are and and the setting that you and I have both been in is. I mean, there's a three month build up.

Mick Bland

Yeah.

Jeff Stucke

To the ceremonies. And then there's three month integration. It's you, you know it. It it's not like you and I got drunk at a bar one night and said let's go do all you ask.

Mick Bland

Absolutely.

Jeff Stucke

I mean that. That's.

Mick Bland

It's it's.

Jeff Stucke

That's just Anna. If if anyone is thinking like this is somehow like license, you're just to go be irresponsible with recreational drugs. It's like that is. That's not. That's not what this is at all. I mean and. For.

Mick Bland

Yeah, absolutely.

Jeff Stucke

Some people right, like they have to get off of their. Antidepressants their psychotropic medications, like you know, and that's a significant weaning process. You know, no alcohol, no sex like it's it's. You know this. This isn't. I want to make sure that we dispel any notion that this is just some sort of glamorized frat party, but this is truly medicine.

Mick Bland

It's not a party. It really is. It truly is. And the nice because you and I both went down to Peru and frankly that's just not available to everyone. That's why it's so exciting to see, you know, quote UN quote magic mushrooms. And we'll talk about those here now, those are going to be a lot more available to the average person. And so that's why it's exciting. That's going to make them that much more available, can provide it to use in the proper. Setting setting so just talk a little bit about magic mushrooms.

Speaker

Cool.

Mick Bland

I say magic mushrooms, they really may refer to mushrooms containing psilocin psilocybin, and those are the two big molecules in them, and for some history on those, the first record I found of just from an archaeological anthropology perspective, back around 10,000 BC. This is down in Australia, they found Aboriginal paintings. Having psychedelic images along with mushrooms, so there's a lot of evidence suggests they've been in use for more than 10,000 years by human beings. Some may or may not have heard the Incas, the Aztecs down in South America. What's now Mexico? Mushrooms are a very significant part of their culture, and that's when they first became in the mainstream is in the mid 50s. Gordon Wasson took a trip to Mexico with his wife and he experienced the psychedelic mushroom ceremony with the. Code and data code and data just meaning a healer, Maria Sobina, and she led them through a magic mushroom ceremony and then he took some pictures and published the results in like magazine. They were released in 1957. And that's when the magic mushrooms first started to appear on the radar, and then upon reading that magazine, Albert Hoffman, that's the Swiss chemist that first synthesized LSD. He went had a similar experience with magic mushrooms. Did a say chemical analysis on the magic mushrooms. And he determined the two active. Molecules are primarily psilocybin and psilocin, and now those are both tryptamine, so they're very similar in structure not only to the dimethyltryptamine. Present in ayahuasca, but also very similar again to the serotonin neurotransmitter. So those do bind to the same 5 HT 2A receptors in our brain, just as does the DMT and iowaska. And that does induce a very similar psychedelic experience as ayahuasca, and people most commonly are just. Maybe tangentially, I'll say familiar with mushrooms. They're commonly called psilocybin mushrooms just for the record, in your gut that psilocybin is broken down into. And they're very similar molecules itself. The big difference on the number 4 carbon on the ring of that tryptamine in psilocin, that's a hydroxyl group. And psilocybin, that's actually a phosphate group. And if we get too far into the organic chemistry, it doesn't really work that well. Talking about in the conversation, I'm actually writing an article going to be on beauty here in a couple. Days just do a search for bald engineers, guide to Alaska and that has some graphics. I'll walk through that in some more detail, but just for this discussion know that the two primary tryptamines are wrapped up or psilocybin and psilocin, and your gut. The psilocybin is broken down into psilocin and that psilocin that's what actually binds to that receptor. Your brain. So when most people hear of magic mushrooms, those are what they think of. But as research has continued, there's some additional compounds in those mushrooms that may or may not be psychoactive on the road, but at the very least, they do contribute to that psychoactive experience. So I'm going to throw some names out here. I don't expect anyone to remember to gain stuck on my article on medium for those who are interested, but this what it's called, Nora. Listen, Biosystem and Arun Acin and those are similar in structure to psilocybin. So those have the phosphate group attached to that number four carbs. And there's also Norcia, but you can probably figure out very similar to psilocin, and so they're very, very similar in shape and structure to psilocybin and psilocin. And those compounds, there's some debate to whether or not they're psychoactive on their own. They have found, for example, north North Cillessen, in particular on mice. Once they expose. That chemical, that compound to the mice that does activate the calcium gateway, that's one of the mechanisms by which serotonin works on the receptor itself. So assuming that N silicon can get in your bloodstream, that has a similar affinity for that five HT 2A receptor as does psilocin. So there's a lot of indication that it could be. Psychoactive. If it gets into your blood. Now there is some question as to whether or not that's able to cross the blood brain barrier as along with those other compounds I just mentioned as well that mugician or biosystem biosystem. Those may or may not cross the blood brain barrier, but at the very least those are monoamines. So those are going to consume some of those monoamine oxidase. Enzymes in your gut, and that's gonna allow there's still a sun and psilocybin to be that much more potent because that much more that's going to enter your bloodstream and to touch base a little more.

Jeff Stucke

Similar curative effects as ayahuasca.

Mick Bland

Exactly. And it's really depends on the person, depends on the setting setting. Personally there's. There's things going on with Iowa that we don't understand as I'm. There is with the psilocin and psilocybin. So is ******** focused as I am on the chemistry now is as good a time as any to mention it. You know, when you and I first met. On the first day of the retreat, I introduced myself as hey, my name is Mick. I'm an engineer, not really in this whole medicine spirit stuff or tree spirit stuff. I'm more about the chemistry. We kind of high fived each other like, hey man, we found a common goal here because we kind of can't hang out with these other people. And I already started my book.

Jeff Stucke

This I'm not into this woo woo **** either. I'm just here for right? We were like, we're not like.

Mick Bland

A few days later. It's just. I'm just it's. It doesn't even sound, but just deserves its own podcast, so stay tuned for that with more detail, but just say.

Jeff Stucke

And I promise you it will get its own podcast.

Mick Bland

Absolutely. And I was.

Jeff Stucke

Because there was some. ******* weird **** that went down when we were in Peru.

Mick Bland

It's the best way I can describe it. I was literally. I was introduced myself. I'm writing a book and getting a bald engineers guy died waska. They'll point you probably figured if I look at me, I'm not a hippie. I'm not a long haired hippie. I'm an engineer and that was the whole premise of my book. I was originally being read is hey, let's just ignore all this stupid woo woo ********. Let's just focus on people actually can think. Rash. And then I had experienced my last ceremony, to put it bluntly, within a minute or two after drinking, the eye washed itself, and it takes a good 20-30 minutes, sometimes before you feel any effects at all. Any psychoactive effects at all, from either the beta carbolines in the ayahuasca, let alone the DMT and the sakuna Bush. So. A minute or two after drinking it literally, they just blown out the candle, saying the ceremony started. I'd heard this kind of commotion behind my head. I was wearing a blindfold and I'd heard it. It felt like people kind of stroking my skull and I thought it was on your one of the other facilitators. I was like, what the **** are you doing here? And then I heard someone say hey, pass. To the night? Very, very clearly. Very, very distinctive. Say, hey, pass in the night and I could just feel just almost felt like a laser beam just dragging across my skull and then felt him pop off the scalp on my skull, reach in, pull something out of my brain. And I just kind of knew, OK, they're pulling out whatever caused that depression and then put the skull back on. I could feel them sewing it back up. And I was like, holy ****, I just had brain surgery by ******* medicine spirits. And then the Iwasaki say then after that ended, then the ayahuasca kicked. And a very specific remember saying, after ceremony I got to write my ******* book like no one's going to believe this, but I'm going to have to literally rewrite the entire ******* book. Obviously I feel find the chemistry fascinating. That does deserve a lot of attention, but there's things going on, particularly with ayawaska I've experienced personally that I don't know if Western civilization is really meant to understand. Some things we're just gonna have to accept, and that's why I haven't experienced that with psilocin or soybean. I've done mushrooms on my own. I've gotten a lot out of it, but really it there needs to be more of a group. There needs to be a proper set and setting, whether that's ayawaska, that's what you and I both experienced together. All my experience with ayahuasca happened down in Peru, have been with the group, have them with the legit. I was scared myself, davia. And so that's one thing that's been missing from my experience with. Sybian, but absolutely the psychedelic experience is very similar and with the proper container around it, with the proper retreat, that's what you're now in the process of building. They can have the same therapeutic effects as ayahuasca does without having to make that trip.

Jeff Stucke

To Peru. It's funny because I didn't know. So because my my third ceremony. There was no it it was like. Took off instantly because. I remember kind of thinking, you know, it's been a good trip. I've learned a lot and just kind of like, you know, OK and and and we'll get into this more. But like my intention for the whole week was fear and not letting fear limit my life. And. Dude, that last ceremony like the 2nd that I drank the ayahuasca. I mean, it was like the train had left the station and the next six hours of my life were like. Beyond comprehension and.

Speaker

And.

Jeff Stucke

But that's funny because I didn't know that yours took off as quickly as mine did.

Mick Bland

Uh, it's just it's so.

Jeff Stucke

1. OK. Our next one, the next podcast is you and I somehow trying to tell the story of our time in Peru.

Mick Bland

I can tell that people are not going to believe it, to quote myself, like after this. The last ceremony ended. Like no one's gonna believe this when I write my book. All I can do is just write it. Put it up there. As honest as it has, I realize people aren't going to believe it, but some people aren't going to believe it. Those who haven't experienced ayawaska.

Jeff Stucke

I you I if if I. If I OK one, I would absolutely not believe it if. I didn't live through it, but. I also think. If I didn't have you, if our experiences hadn't been so intertwined and I didn't have you to call and say, did this really ******* happen? I don't know that I would. Still, I may have talked to myself out of some of the things that happened. While we were there.

Mick Bland

I really think that's what happened to me my first couple of tries. I got it. I'm still here, so obviously it worked. It cured the depression, but I just didn't have anyone to talk to. I mean, I didn't tell my dad. My mom died a few years prior, but my dad, just for those who, you know, he worked at area 51 about as high security clearance as you can possibly have. Drugs were just not a part of my. Upbringing. I don't know how I'm supposed to talk to my dad. Who's, you know, died. He was a very practicing Catholic. And that's not my path. But hey, more power to him. But you know, a ******** Catholic with a high core, you know, ******** security. Learns that's not someone you can talk about Ayahuasca with. It just doesn't work. And other friends I've had, I was frankly really socially isolated at that time. But the few friends I did have, they're just not the kind of dude you can talk about ayahuasca with. And we're like talking about football, drinking beer, doing whatever. So how can you only talk about experience with medicine, spirits, and experience with? Opening up a possibility to we really are interconnected at a consciousness level that it's really hard to understand unless you've experienced it. You need someone to talk to, you need someone to share these experiences with and that's why I'm so excited about building our psilocybin based retreats. Sir, say silicon retreats in the coming months and year.

Jeff Stucke

And I'm in southern Indiana, Bro, which you can't even fully appreciate that. So you can imagine, like I come back from Peru and I I put, I put a few posts on Facebook just whatever and some of it was like just more just kind of like I I just a little bit of like. OK, I'm I'm doing this like I'm not. I'm not hiding this. I'm not going Full disclosure. But then when I get back from Peru, like going up the Amazon, and I still vividly remember getting dumped out. At off the. Amazon and going to that village and then to Casa del Maestro. And like just this decision of what the **** have I done to my life or I am fully committed to this process and I just had to fully commit to the process, which I'm glad I did. Because it it's. Once. Once you understand the possibilities and you're not afraid of the possibilities, and you embrace the possibilities. What? Whatever whatever it opens up to you, whether it's perhaps it's been a long standing battle with the resistant. Issue like depression or somebody that's just like I want to experience everything that there is to experience in life and what's so beautiful about that from my perspective is.

Speaker

MHM.

Jeff Stucke

Even though you and I were coming from, from our perspective, two different places. The way that we ended. And. How? It wasn't like it wasn't like I was 10 miles ahead of you. It's like we ended at the exact same finish line together. With this completely expanded sense of life experience to where you and I are connected for the rest of our lives in a way that I don't, I truly don't believe. We could be connected with someone outside of this context.

Mick Bland

I don't think it is common. I'm not going to say it now, just as it teaser for the next podcast, but literally you had a vision that could have been meant for myself and it wasn't until you shared that vision with me that I realized, OK, you would. Think that vision. Why didn't I receive that vision? That was about me, that had nothing to do with you and something up there is bringing us together. And there's just there's no other way to describe it. It's just there are things happen. Being. Beyond understanding that are even beyond comprehension until you've experienced something similar first hand yourself and that's I'm I'm both excited about. I wasp becoming legal in places, Colorado being one. But if you you need to drink ayahuasca with someone who knows what they're doing, is they the typical, you know, Heather eagle feather. Someone has had a couple of ceremonies. Hey, it's great. The world needs more people that want to help people and less they spent multiple years in Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador and South America doing a formal apprenticeship doing plant they at this with the. Hit. Preferably someone with multi generational Iowa Sketo I'll just call it generally Shaman, which is kind of a general term, but there's a reason why it's used. You'd be very, very careful of that. And as you just just touched. On. Just that trip to Pruitt itself, that's its own part of that therapy. Myself. I would have never had the gumption to go down there unless it was down there to kill myself. You not to be a buzzkill, but that's just the workplace I was at. I couldn't even leave the house. So just the fact that's what got me out of the house and go down to true. I can buy the Nembutal down there. I can do that to off myself while I'm there, I'll drink this. I wash this **** and literally halfway through my first ceremony I was like, this ain't working. I'm at it. I'm *******. Right here. But just the trip down to Pruitt itself and just driving and seeing how people live. And it's hard not to appreciate people fault America I ***** about as much as most people do, but until you spend time in a legit third world country with people who live on dirt floors, we have 10 people living in what you and I would refer to as a shack. That alone. Just that journey, that experience that's going to make yourself that much more open to possibilities that are really just going to be missing if you go to a tree here in America so highly recommend if it's at all possible, do so.

Jeff Stucke

Well, and it's just it. It strips life down to its fewest number of necessary parts. It's. You know, I mean, we were in the Amazon in August and you know, with this sanango diet to like, we don't get to use any personal hygiene products, we don't get to use soap. We don't get like you know, it's like it. And again, I won't go too far into that, but it's just like.

Mick Bland

Yeah, no salt.

Jeff Stucke

Especially with in. Will this the a topic for a later podcast will be because it it deserves its own podcast is the topic of earned versus unearned dopamine and the again, we won't, I won't. I'll let you elaborate on that, but it's like we're we're inundated with unearned dopamine, which has profound implications. To just why everyone is so miserable. And. You know the so, so stripping it down, but then the other thing just for me as a practitioner in the mental health field that's been in it. For 25 years. Knowing that we now have more access to therapeutic and psychiatric intervention than humanity has ever had, and mental health is on the. Decline at an increasing rate more than it has ever been. And when? When the the prescription for that is do more of the same thing. It's like.

Mick Bland

That's. Anything can work.

Jeff Stucke

It. Talk about the definition of an definition of insanity. Doing the same thing over again, expecting different results. It's like. That's pejorative, but at the same time, it's like, OK, let's increase the rate at which we're doing things that are proven not to work and let's continue to. Make these interventions that we absolutely know are life changing taboo. That's and Mike, I'll give you a final word on our discussion today.

Mick Bland

Really not much close to that other than you have. It's just these really are life changing drugs. You know, they obviously talk to your doctor first, but there's very little risk for the average population. And if you're in a dark place, you don't have to wait to get to where I was at, where you're going down the food to kill yourself and you're just missing something out of your life. If you're not sure. That it is even if you feel kind of happy, but if you just feel some sort of calling for something different, if you feel there's us talking about Iowa, ask if that's kind of triggered something in your brain and you're just feeling you're not on your brain. Also in your heart. You know, I'd have laughed at myself. I would have said that before I wasn't good. But if you're just feeling some kind of calling and you don't really, you don't know why you can't explain it, but it just seems like something that's the right thing to do. Follow that call and follow that path. You don't have to stay in the darkness, even if you're not as dark as I was. If your life doesn't have any sort of sense of purpose. If you have obvious thought psychedelics for just for long haired hippies, man, that ain't the ******* case. I can go a lot more in detail and the chemist starts doing aboard the ship out of. People. But this is based in ******** science. There is light at the end of the tunnel. It can open up your world in a way that's impossible to describe until you've experienced it.

Jeff Stucke

And we will bore them a little bit because I do want them to understand the just the full depth of knowledge that we have about this, which is, which is profoundly deeper than Big Pharma and their knowledge of. Of the psychotropic interventions that we current currently employ and and and maybe your point of entry is not like mix, maybe your point of entry is more like mine one. Not really, ever having had a rite of passage from boy to man. And not really knowing like have I fully. Experienced that passage into manhood and am I getting all that I can get out of life and am I experiencing life to its fullest? And and again I had a good life. I had a. You know, have a very successful practice. I have 3 wonderful children that I have a fantastic relationship with and it was. My experience again, even though our points of entry were different. They were equally transformational and and now we get to be on the same path at the same point together.

Mick Bland

Saying it, it's not an accident. We'll leave it at that. And neither you or I, or believe in organized religion at all. So just want to clarify that if we talk about some sort of higher power, some form of whatever. Hey, if you're into organized religion, that's awesome. But there's there's something up there how they want to describe it, that it's not an accident that we came together. We're.

Jeff Stucke

OK, whatever it is.

Mick Bland

Going to be together for life.

Jeff Stucke

Cool. All right, so next time we'll we'll do our best to tell the story right.

Mick Bland

Yes. That's going to cry more prep to try to get ready for that. That chemistry he's going to talk about that off. I ask, because that's what I'm into, but trying to describe our experience and that's to take some work.

Jeff Stucke

All right, get started on it because our listeners are going to want to hear it.

Mick Bland

All right, looking forward to it.

Jeff Stucke

Thanks buddy. Talk soon.

Mick Bland

Thanks, bud. You bet.